Not Thriving: Success Symbiosis

Note: This thread was proposed by El Rise.

Success Symbiosis is created in 2011, but it only has 19 wicks. I suggest cutting it.

Paging ~El Rise to the thread.

Anyway, I agree with cutting, and I get the feeling this might be Too Rare to Trope. Edit: Retracted. See my next post.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Jun 12th 2023 at 8:36:13 AM

Cut

Cut

I disagree with cutting this, I think there's a trope here. Though it might help to expand the example pool if we removed the requirement that Alice and Bob actually intentionally work together. For example, that way I could add:

• Warhammer 40,000: When Hive Fleet Kraken invaded Imperial space, it divided into two main swarms that advanced on parallel paths. One of these swarms was destroyed by the Ultramarines, the other in a simultaneous Pyrrhic Victory by the eldar of Craftworld Iyanden. It is said in the codex that neither defender would have succeeded had the other not also succeeded: the Hive Mind would otherwise have been able to reinforce the other swarm.
• Star Wars: The Old Republic: The interlude after the Onslaught expansion reveals that at the same time that the Outlander was having their climactic Battle in the Center of the Mind with the ghostly Sith Emperor, the Jedi Knight PC's companions Kira Carsen and Scourge were busy destroying his original body elsewhere, which was just as critical to destroying him permanently as the Outlander's actions.

Edited by StarSword on Jun 12th 2023 at 8:41:13 AM

You're missing the point. The problem isn't that this is Not a Trope, it's that its Too Rare to Trope.

I think you misread my post. I didn't say I was 100% sure it was Too Rare to Trope. I specifically said I had a feeling it could be. If my hunch was mistaken and someone has an idea regarding how to salvage this, I'm willing to listen.

With that in mind, I'm changing my vote to StarSword's idea of removing the requirement that the two characters are intentionally working together, since that would solve at least some of this trope's narrowness issues. Maybe we could also run an example drive on TLP.

Edit: Actually, adding this to Pages Needing Wicks and Tropes Needing Examples might be something to try before doing an example drive on TLP, since it isn't already listed on either. I'm in favor of doing that after expanding the definition, and then closing the thread. Maybe featuring this in Trope Report would also help.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Jun 12th 2023 at 8:31:41 AM

Cut

Cut

This seems tropable to me and it has enough examples to show that's it's a thing. I don't think it spent enough time in TLP (and well it was 2011) so maybe we can send it back or do the suggested example drive. Expanding also sounds fine to me.

Edited by MacronNotes on Jun 12th 2023 at 10:10:47 AM

Whether or not there's something tropeworthy in here that can be spun out is YMMV, but as written, this trope is very confused and the examples don't even really reflect it.

Summarizing the trope: two characters with separate goals cannot succeed if the other one fails, but they also cannot simply work together to accomplish their goals.

The first two on page examples:

• In at least some versions of the story, Superman uses Lois Lane to scout out the baddies and types her papers as Clark Kent in order to keep it that way.
  • Does Superman need Lois to complete his goal of defeating the bad guys? Can he defeat them without her help? If the help isn't strictly necessary (just welcomed), how is this any different from "character helps another character"? And what is the goal Lois is trying to accomplish here that she needs Superman for? The example doesn't really say.
• In Batman: The Dark Knight Returns, once Batman had retired, so did the Joker. And once he comes out of retirement, The Joker follows suit.
  • The Joker's line ("You complete me") in The Dark Knight could be seen as this trope.
  • Again, what are the goals here that each are trying to accomplish? How is Batman's success at whatever goal he's trying to achieve wholly dependent on Joker also succeeding?

Some of the examples are just describing a mutually beneficial arrangement, which we could trope, but that's pretty different from what's actually being described.

Edited by amathieu13 on Jun 12th 2023 at 10:15:49 AM

I'd be fine with unlaunching. I was thinking we could do what we did with Monsters Favorite Petting Spot. With that one, I copied and pasted the current incarnation of that page into the draft before unlaunching, and then after unlaunching, I mentioned that I wasn't sponsoring it myself (since the draft showed that I was the last person to edit it after I updated the draft's contents) and that I was putting it Up for Grabs. Obviously, if someone in this thread wants to sponsor Success Symbiosis, we wouldn't put it Up for Grabs.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Jun 12th 2023 at 9:17:02 AM

Feels like a thing, so return to TLP

Note that both those examples are in the original YKTTW.

Doesn't surprise me since the trope is in the starving range. And like I mentioned, most of the on page examples are just as unclear and murky. Tbh, I'm not sure why we'd send this back to the TLP versus a straight cut followed by either yarding the idea or someone making a new draft on their own. I suppose the effect is ultimately the same, I just don't know what we're trying to preserve here since most of the examples would likely get cut, the barebones description is likely to be redefined/rewritten, and the two possible examples for the rewrite are wholly new, anyways.

Edited by amathieu13 on Jun 13th 2023 at 6:48:02 AM

If we end up going for a straight cut once we hit the three-day mark (there's too much disagreement to waive the Three-Day Rule with this thread), I'll probably Yard the page in case anyone wants to try it again, and then TLP (using a new draft instead of the original one) can sort everything out from there, including whether to expand the definition as previously mentioned.

On that note, I'm changing my vote back to cutting due to the problems pointed out with the examples, but I do think this might end up working if it gets more time in TLP than it was given, hence my plan to Yard it (and since Yarding is a free action, I'm not counting it separately from cutting).

Edited by GastonRabbit on Jun 13th 2023 at 6:43:41 AM

Yarding is a free action so cutting would be fun.

Yeah, I think you have a point there. The idea seems workable but we'd basically be starting from scratch as it is.

Cut, then.

Easy cut

Done, so locking up.