Old Complete Monster cleanup thread
Welcome to the Complete Monster proposal thread! This is the thread where new Complete Monster examples are vetted, approved, and written up. If you're looking for the general cleanup thread (for cuts, rewrites, expansions, and the like), please go here
Important: Before suggesting any new examples, please read the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List; if you have any questions, the odds are high they are answered there. Additionally, please check here for the earliest date a work can be discussed (usually two weeks from the U.S. release date) and whether the work has already been reserved by another user.
Here is how the process works:
- If you have a candidate to propose, you can simply come right in and propose them! If the character's run is brief, such as a single issue of a comic book, then a simple summary of their actions and any potential redeeming qualities will be enough; for longer-running candidates, an effortpost (EP) might be helpful for organizing the proposal. An EP is not outright required, but please be mindful that if a post becomes too clunky and unorganized, it can be very hard for other people to follow.
- After the proposal, there will be a 72-hour discussion and voting period, where people may ask questions and vote on the candidate. The number of upvotes must outnumber the downvotes by at least five for the character to be considered "approved".
- Three days after the proposal has been made, if the character has been approved, you may post the writeup (the text to be posted on the trope page itself) on the thread and send it to the drafts page. Your candidate will soon be added to the CM subpage. If the work has a page, you should add your candidate to the relevant YMMV page. Voila! It's that simple!
Outside of this process, we do have a few ground rules:
- To keep the thread moving at a reasonable pace, there are some restrictions on when a proposal can be made. There should only be a maximum of four EPs posted both per page and per hour to ensure that nothing gets lost in the shuffle; additionally, each individual troper should only be proposing or writing up characters from a maximum of three works at a time (from initial proposals to end of their voting period). If your proposal would fall outside of either of these guidelines, we'd like to ask you to please wait until they would fit within; feel free to type them up on an outside document, and then when the time comes, you can just copy, paste, and post!
- No plagiarism of any kind. This is a very serious matter site-wide, as the website could get in actual legal trouble over this; as a result, this can very quickly lead to mod intervention. This can take many different forms:
- Direct plagiarism, i.e. wholesale copying. This is not only the easiest to find, but is also the most likely to warrant quick moderator intervention. To be clear, quoting in some places is perfectly acceptable, but it has to be very clear you're quoting from something else and it cannot be anything longer than a sentence or two - if you're quoting an entire work summary from Wikipedia, no one is going to believe you've actually consumed the work, so even if you cite your source, your candidate will be downvoted anyway.
- Self-plagiarism. Even if you can prove that you wrote the same text in both places, the site itself can't contain any of the duplicated text. If you already wrote something once before, it's not too hard to write it a second time.
- Using another site's work as a template for a proposal. Just because you don't copy and paste something directly doesn't mean it's any harder to detect if you're basing parts or all of your proposal on text someone else wrote. To be clear, this doesn't violate site rules and won't lead to mod intervention, but just like if you directly plagiarize, no one will believe you've consumed the work if you're clearly basing your proposal on something else. This thread largely operates on the honor system, and tweaking someone else's work to pass it off as your own is one of the fastest ways to lose trust.
- Votes must be for specific candidates, meaning no blanket voting (i.e. "yes to everyone I missed").
- If you are the first person to downvote a candidate, please provide an explanation of why when you do so. We're here for discussions above all, and a hit-and-run downvote doesn't facilitate anything.
- If a work is already reserved by another user, please don't comment on the work or any potential characters worth discussion before the discussion date. We know how exciting it is when a work has a keeper that you're waiting to talk about, but it's not fair to the person who reserved the work who is just as excited to lead the discussion to see the discussion getting spoiled before they get to do it. On the other hand, if the reservation only has one name attached, shoot them a PM - they may be down for a collaboration, which will get you in on the fun as well!
- Please keep the thread on-topic. While discussing the trope is fun and we encourage people to enjoy it, questions like "who's your favorite CM" are off-topic and can lead to thumps. That's the kind of question to take to people's PMs if they're willing. Similarly, while we encourage friendliness and familiarity with other users, posts should always have some kind of thread-relevant purpose; for instance, if you want to wish someone a happy birthday, feel free to, but if it's the only thing in the post, it's off-topic and needs something else alongside it. Again, though, while we strive for a friendly atmosphere, this is not Facebook; life updates are fun, but unless they have some kind of impact on your thread participation, please do not bring it here - we have Yack Fest for that.
- Please refrain from asking anything along the lines of "How Did We Miss This One?" In almost every case, the answer is simply "No one thought about it before". This Is a Wiki where everyone has different interests, and the fact that people missed a particular candidate, even one that seems like a textbook example of a trope or a character who is particularly iconic in pop culture, means absolutely nothing. The question is disruptive, has a simple and consistent answer, and provides nothing to any discussion.
- If you are suspended from parts of the website, it is still possible to participate!
- For users who are suspended from editing the wiki, you still have full access to this thread. You can propose candidates and write them up with no issues whatsoever; while you will have to ask someone else to post the entry to the relevant pages once it is done, all write-ups are considered thread-approved - as in, done by consensus - and thus doing so does not violate any rules regarding meatpuppeting.
- If you are suspended from the forums, your participation is limited but not impossible. It is still possible for a forum-suspended user to assist in creating the write-up for a character who has already been approved; as previously mentioned, write-ups are inherently considered a consensus-based edit and thus not tied to any one particular user. However, you can not assist in the proposal of a character; as a proposal is based around the forum rather than the wiki, doing so with a forum suspension qualifies as meatpuppeting.
- Please keep all discussions "in-house".
- What other wikis use for CM equivalents is irrelevant here.
- Please be wary of using other wikis, Fandom or otherwise, as sources of information. They are just as fallible as a site like Wikipedia in regards to accuracy because they can be edited by any user, just as this site can.
- Do not attempt to force a communication with an author in an attempt to gather evidence or settle a debate; besides the fact that this is a YMMV trope and thus author intent has variable weight depending on the circumstance, doing so may cross the line into drama exportation, which is prohibited site-wide.
If you would like to use an EP for your candidate, here's the general format. This format does not have to be followed exactly, but these are the main topics that need to be covered:
What is the work?
This is a brief summary of the work you're going to discuss. We don't need a full plot summary here, just however much we need to understand going into the discussion — it can even be as simple as quoting the summary on the work's page.
Who is the candidate and what have they done?
This is essentially the character's biography — who they are, their story, the crimes they commit, and, preferably (though not required), what happens to the candidate at the end. It does not have to include every single thing they ever do — for some villains, we'd be here all day if that was the case — but it should include the highlights of their journey.
Any redeeming qualities? Freudian Excuse?
This is where any potential redeeming characteristics or tragic backstory should be discussed. Do they have a tragic past? Do they show that Even Evil Has Standards or Even Evil Has Loved Ones? Maybe a Pet the Dog moment or two? This is where these should be discussed in full. Not every potential redeeming moment is a clear-cut disqualifier, but we should hear of any potential issues to ensure the character is discussed in full.
Are they bad enough?
A Complete Monster has to be particularly vile by the standard of the work they appear in. Therefore, you should look at what the character does compared to similar characters in the same work. This takes into account things like:
- Their resource level (a human Serial Killer can't stand up to an alien Omnicidal Maniac, but they can be bad by the standard of other human serial killers)
- The amount of time they have to work with (such as a one-shot character versus long-running antagonists)
- The quantity vs. quality of their crimes compared to others (someone with a lower victim count but far more visceral and personal crimes could be considered as equally bad overall as someone with a higher body count but less horror involved)
Essentially, this section is an analysis of the kinds of villainy shown in the work and an explanation of why this particular character's villainy stands out within it.
Final verdict?
This is where you post your final conclusion on the character in question. You can continue elaborating on your reasons or even just say a simple "yes" or "no"; at this point, we've heard everything we need to hear.
IMPORTANT NOTICE: This thread tackles very serious and dark matters on a daily basis. We will be discussing things like murder, rape, torture, human trafficking, crimes against children, and in particularly dark cases, several of these issues at the same time. We keep a lighthearted air, but all candidates carry the general assumption that these are awful individuals committing disgusting crimes. We ask that if you participate, you do so with the requisite seriousness such dark topics require; exclamations of how gross something is, whether serious or sarcastic, are disrespectful to the topics at hand, and if you cannot handle such topics, please do not participate.
And that's everything you need to know. Welcome to the thread!
Edited by Twiddler on Jan 17th 2024 at 5:42:49 AM
The Moron
I think they're all good to be posted Wet, and in case I haven't said it yet, best wishes to you and your family. Obviously don't hesitate to take any time away if you need it, we'll still be here when you get back
RIP Julian Sands
Hey I've got a question about my next AKA candidate whose EP I have up on my sandbox ready to be posted. However guy only appears in the photos on the internet, among them is a photo slide show of him being escorted out of a courthouse by police before he gets killed by Adam Franco while his crimes are described on an internet page. I want to know Is that is enough given how we've loosen rule and how if effects Adam's path to become Kruger's hitman?
Edited by G-Editor on Jun 27th 2023 at 5:56:50 AM
Having read it both ways, I would agree with ACW actually on Scourge going first since he features way more prominently than Unicron does.
@Wet Both writeups—yours for Scourge and Lighty's for Unicron—look good. Also, good luck again to your mom in her recovery.
God rest Julian Sands. Sheesh.
Another 24 actor gone. At least we know now rather than continuing to remain in the dark about it.
Are they, though? IIRC Word of God is that Bumblebee started as a prequel to the Bay movies but was turned into a reboot, and Rise of the Beasts cements this by virtue of Unicron being out devouring planets instead of forming the Earth's core like in The Last Knight — where the Earth is stated to have formed around his inert body.
The Moron
I was talking about Happy Death Day, not Transformers
The Ultimate Lifeform
Okay... Last one before I make the writeup for Dimentio, I promise! I hope you guys like the proposal!
What is the Work?
XCOM 2 is one of Firaxis Games's latest instillations in the XCOM series. It's set 20 years after XCOM: Enemy Unknown where the XCOM Project failed to stop the Alien Invasion with Earth's governments swearing their fealty to ADVENT. XCOM is now a rag tag resistance cell, with the Commander (aka you the player) being tasked with rebuilding the project to finally beat the aliens for real.note
Who is the Angelis Ethereal and what has she done?
The Angelis Ethereal is the leader of the Ethereal, aka the Elders who lead the coalition of Aliens that first invaded Earth in the days of Enemy Unknown/Enemy Within. Back then it was implied that the Elders wanted to train Humanity to fight an unseen threat. The Angelis Ethereal has a rather... Different approach.
When the Commander is freed from ADVENT captivity, the Angelis Ethereal immediately mobilizes as much of her forces as she can to hunt the Commander and XCOM down and destroy them so that the Elder's plans remain unencumbered. This includes sending in their most formidable servants, the Chosen who were created in the Elder's image, with the task of crushing any and all resistance, which includes the millions of innocent civilians who simply don't live under ADVENT's heel. Of course she doesn't do this without psionicaly torturing the Chosen Hunter when he mouths off that he thought the Ethereals were the strongest, with AE voicing fury at the fact that the Hunter demonstrated even a hint of Humanity in him. The rest of her servants are treated no better since they are all slave races forced to fight for the Ethereal, such as the Vipers who had a total Gendercide inflicted on them to control them, or the ADVENT Half-Human Hybrid soldiers who are both grown from DNA storage or converted from unlucky Volunteers.
But why do all of this? Well it turns out that this is all part of the Elder's attempt to keep the Commander and XCOM (as well as the brainwashed citizens of ADVENT cities) off the trail of their real agenda. The harvesting of the entirety of Humanity to create shiny new vessels called Avatars that the Angelis Ethereal and her kin can put their psionic spirits in to replace their rapidly decaying old bodies. All of this just so the Ethereals could live a little longer to resume their quest to fight some unseen Psionic foe they went and pissed off. At the end of the game, the Elder's get their plans blown wide open and exposed to the entire planet with all of Earth rising up against ADVENT while XCOM assaults the alien base at the bottom of the Pacific Ocean. The Angelis Ethereal responds to this by sending the ADVENT forces still under her control to completely exterminate Humanity, all the while trying to convince the Commander that they mean no harm, and if you take long enough on the assault, the Angelis Ethereal drops all pretense of being a noble Well-Intentioned Extremist and goes on a furious tirade against Humanity continuing to resist her and the Elders.
Any redeeming qualities? Freudian Excuse?
This one is tricky. There is absolutely zero care in the Angelis Ethereal for anyone who isn't an Elder. She openly despises Humanity existing. She enslaved countless other races and forcibly altered their genes to suit her purposes. She even treats the Chosen like crap. When one of the Chosen is killed permanently for the first time, the Angelis Ethereal at first seems to mourn their death... Only to turn right around and start torturing the surviving two Chosen for having some Human emotions regarding their sibling's death, namely Arrogance for the Warlock if he is still alive, Emptiness for the Assassin if she is still alive, and Satisfaction for the Hunter if he is still alive. (The Chosen all hate each other's guts, which is why they aren't so sad at their sibling's death.) Further still, the aforementioned Hunter mentions that if the Chosen don't find the Commander and capture them before the Avatar Project succeeds, then all of the Chosen will be subjected to immediate termination.
All of that is why she is getting effort posted. What's tricky is the matter of other Elders. The game never establishes if the Angelus Ethereal genuinely cares for other Ethereals, as while the Movie Voiceover Guy mentions that ADVENT isn't taking the death of an Elder lightly after you kill the campaign's first Avatar, the Angelis Ethereal herself doesn't even acknowledge that you killed one of her kin. Further while she does use "We" when describing the Ethereals... The diction that she uses for it is framed almost like a Hive Queen way, or even a Royal "We", since she never refers to herself as an individual. Additionally it's implied that the Commander may have an Ethereal inside them that underwent a Heel–Face Turn, given how one Ethereal suddenly starts rooting for the player against their kin in the final mission, and how the Commander sees an Ethereal with Blue Psionics when they first awaken and when they take control of their very own homegrown Avatar. The Angelis Ethereal reacts thusly: BETRAYER!!! I think this is enough to prove that she is ultimately only caring for other Elders when they do what she wants, and since she never shows grief for the Ethereal you already killed... It shows her love is completely conditional. Further still, unlike the Uber Ethereal of EU/EW, who was genuinely trying to train Humanity to face a bigger threat and took Humanity reaching his level of psionic power in stride, even congratulating them, the Angelis Ethereal has a complete Villainous Breakdown when Humanity starts to win, and makes it clear that she is out to assert her dominance first and foremost, no matter what lipservice she plays about getting Humanity ready for something bigger. (She even states that Humanity isn't ready as she's actively losing her base to the Commander.)
Are they bad enough?
Genocide, genocide, genocide. The Angeli's Ethereal is leading one against Humanity, and is implied to have committed more in the past, as well as confirmed to have at the least committed Gendercide against the Vipers and enslaved numerous other races who were unlucky enough to get in her line of sight.
Final verdict?
I think she keeps. This is definitely the candidate that comes the closest to not keeping I have done, but upon deeper examination, I think there is just enough context clues to determine that she makes it. What do you guys think?
"Us weirdos have to stick together!"
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
The Angelis Ethereal
to Angelis
You know since I've already got his EP ready to go I'll just post him here let everyone see what they think (here's my EP on Kruger for those who haven't vote on him). With that here’s my second candidate from AKA. Not entirely sure about this guy but I think that he’s worth an EP, Jean-Luc Meunier.
Who Is He? What Has He Done?
Jean-Luc Meunier was a member of the general council who was revealed to be a pedophile arrested for kidnapping, rapping, and murdering several children between the year 1993 and 1995 with one victim being only 3-years old.
Among the child Jean raped and killed also included Adam Franco brother, to which Adam Franco responds by tracking Jean down at a courthouse in Dijon where he would kill Jean for what the latter did to his brother.
This leads to the police gunning down Adam resulting in Adam being put into intensive care to which Kruger would find and recruit Adam into becoming one of his hitmen resulting Adam becoming a killer and countless people killed as a result.
Freudian Excuse? Redeeming Qualities? Other Militating Factors?
Jean is never given any excuse or justifiable reason on why he kidnapped, raped, and killed numerous children other than perverted lust and is never shown to be remorseful for what he’s done nor is he never been given any redeeming qualities.
My main concern is that he’s already dead by the time the movie started so he only appears in pictures when Helene looks up Adam’s past, where we see pictures of Jean and a picture slideshow of him being escorted out of the courthouse where he is then killed by Adam and we do see Adam in a flashback in the hospital after the latter recovers from getting shot for killing Jean where Kruger recruits him. Given that we loosen rules regarding screen time it may be enough the description and photos might be enough for a characterization, but I’m not entirely sure.
Heinousness
While the audience only learns of Jean’s crimes when Helene looks him up, where the internet describes Jean’s crimes in full detail of him kidnapping, raping, and killing children with one being as young as three-years old, a picture of one of Jean's victims being shown, while another of his victims was Adam’ brother resulting in Adam killing Jean.
Given that we’ve loosen rules offscreen villainy and how Jean’s actions resulted in Adam getting shot as shown in a slideshow and Kruger’s recruiting Adam as his hitman resulting in more deaths to come, I think that it may push Jean to stand out in terms of being a Small Role, Big Impact villain.
Final Verdict?
I will leave that decision for you guys to decide.
Edited by G-Editor on Jun 27th 2023 at 7:45:50 AM
Not really sure on GOTG the game's version of Thanos, TBH - it kind of feels like he's on par with Magus/Raker/the Universal Church, and while it's been a bit since I saw the story I don't remember anything that really makes him even indirectly responsible for them. (Did Raker's son die during the war or something?)
I will, however vote to Jean, the Angelis Ethereal, Kruger, Var, and Kim'Dael. (Surprised to hear the creators are saying Aaravos has noble intentions - he was definitely on my personal watch list until now.)
Edited by nrjxll on Jun 27th 2023 at 11:58:29 AM
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Does Aaravos contradict them? Is it just another case of Unintentionally Unsympathetic?
Nah, we don't know much about his motives at all - it's more just that the more we've learned so far, the more sinister he seems (in contrast to Viren who keeps getting humanizing moments even as he also keeps jumping off one slippery slope after another).
Yeh, the creators even said on Aaravos he's more "misunderstood" than "bad."
Oh, and yes to Forgo and G's first. Hard not to the second
Edited by Lightysnake on Jun 27th 2023 at 10:36:51 AM
Not the Eye
to Val, Thanos, Kruger and Angelis.
![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_down_emote.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
to Jean
Edited by EmperorGeode on Jun 27th 2023 at 10:41:32 AM
Maybe Aaravos started out that way — or maybe it's because we only see things from the perspective of his enemies — but he strikes me as pretty Faux Affably Evil and he can be quite sadistic when he wants to be. Just look at the trailer for Season 5.
Oh yeah, I'm definitely gonna be calling that when it's time. I'm invested now
The Ultimate Lifeform
Maybe Aravaros is in an Emperor Belos situation. Remember when Matthew Rhys said he thought that Belos was misunderstood and the fandom took that to mean he was less evil when the opposite was true?
Edited by ForgoLight on Jun 27th 2023 at 10:24:41 AM
"Us weirdos have to stick together!"
....Phenomenal
for Kruger and Angelis.
I'm a little unsure on Jean, if I'm reading the EP right he doesn't even actually appear, or have dialogue, or anything, it's only files looked up secondhand? Is that correct? Even with looser offscreen rules that sounds a little dubious.
There remains a foothold out of this mire — now climb.
As said in my EP; Jean is already dead by the time this movie began is the one problem, so all we see of him are photos, including a slideshow where he gets killed by Adam. There is a photo of one of Jean's victims that Adam keeps (it's implied to be his brother) so that establishes a pattern of Onscreen villainy for Jean.
otherwise he could have easily counted if he made an actual appearance (like appear in a flashback or video to show some characterization), but I just thought to EP him to see what everyone thinks regarding that situation. again vote however you guys want. I won't loose any sleep on whether or not Jean gets voted up or not.
Edited by G-Editor on Jun 27th 2023 at 7:51:41 AM
Yeah, I'm a no to Jean
....Phenomenal
Leaning , yeah.
Edited by TheGrayFox on Jun 27th 2023 at 10:41:34 AM
There remains a foothold out of this mire — now climb.
The Ultimate Lifeform
Have to say to Jean as loathsome as he is.
Goku Black
Is their any Reason were upvoting Thanos when his motivation is the exact Same as his comic counterpart (his wanting to earn the affections of lady death)?
Edited by miraculous on Jun 27th 2023 at 11:11:34 AM
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Woagh
to Thanos if his twisted care for Death is still there.
Also I did ask if folks were alright with the writeups there before I intended on posting them to the drafts. Idrc about placement since Unicron may appear in more films so.
RIP Julian Sands, they've discovered his remains in the mountain trail and confirmed it's him.
Edited by WetFlannels on Jun 27th 2023 at 4:25:21 PM
Oh, Mr. Kennedy, you entertain me. To show my appreciation, I will help you awaken from your world of clichés.