Old Complete Monster cleanup thread
Welcome to the Complete Monster proposal thread! This is the thread where new Complete Monster examples are vetted, approved, and written up. If you're looking for the general cleanup thread (for cuts, rewrites, expansions, and the like), please go here
Important: Before suggesting any new examples, please read the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List; if you have any questions, the odds are high they are answered there. Additionally, please check here for the earliest date a work can be discussed (usually two weeks from the U.S. release date) and whether the work has already been reserved by another user.
Here is how the process works:
- If you have a candidate to propose, you can simply come right in and propose them! If the character's run is brief, such as a single issue of a comic book, then a simple summary of their actions and any potential redeeming qualities will be enough; for longer-running candidates, an effortpost (EP) might be helpful for organizing the proposal. An EP is not outright required, but please be mindful that if a post becomes too clunky and unorganized, it can be very hard for other people to follow.
- After the proposal, there will be a 72-hour discussion and voting period, where people may ask questions and vote on the candidate. The number of upvotes must outnumber the downvotes by at least five for the character to be considered "approved".
- Three days after the proposal has been made, if the character has been approved, you may post the writeup (the text to be posted on the trope page itself) on the thread and send it to the drafts page. Your candidate will soon be added to the CM subpage. If the work has a page, you should add your candidate to the relevant YMMV page. Voila! It's that simple!
Outside of this process, we do have a few ground rules:
- To keep the thread moving at a reasonable pace, there are some restrictions on when a proposal can be made. There should only be a maximum of four EPs posted both per page and per hour to ensure that nothing gets lost in the shuffle; additionally, each individual troper should only be proposing or writing up characters from a maximum of three works at a time (from initial proposals to end of their voting period). If your proposal would fall outside of either of these guidelines, we'd like to ask you to please wait until they would fit within; feel free to type them up on an outside document, and then when the time comes, you can just copy, paste, and post!
- No plagiarism of any kind. This is a very serious matter site-wide, as the website could get in actual legal trouble over this; as a result, this can very quickly lead to mod intervention. This can take many different forms:
- Direct plagiarism, i.e. wholesale copying. This is not only the easiest to find, but is also the most likely to warrant quick moderator intervention. To be clear, quoting in some places is perfectly acceptable, but it has to be very clear you're quoting from something else and it cannot be anything longer than a sentence or two - if you're quoting an entire work summary from Wikipedia, no one is going to believe you've actually consumed the work, so even if you cite your source, your candidate will be downvoted anyway.
- Self-plagiarism. Even if you can prove that you wrote the same text in both places, the site itself can't contain any of the duplicated text. If you already wrote something once before, it's not too hard to write it a second time.
- Using another site's work as a template for a proposal. Just because you don't copy and paste something directly doesn't mean it's any harder to detect if you're basing parts or all of your proposal on text someone else wrote. To be clear, this doesn't violate site rules and won't lead to mod intervention, but just like if you directly plagiarize, no one will believe you've consumed the work if you're clearly basing your proposal on something else. This thread largely operates on the honor system, and tweaking someone else's work to pass it off as your own is one of the fastest ways to lose trust.
- Votes must be for specific candidates, meaning no blanket voting (i.e. "yes to everyone I missed").
- If you are the first person to downvote a candidate, please provide an explanation of why when you do so. We're here for discussions above all, and a hit-and-run downvote doesn't facilitate anything.
- If a work is already reserved by another user, please don't comment on the work or any potential characters worth discussion before the discussion date. We know how exciting it is when a work has a keeper that you're waiting to talk about, but it's not fair to the person who reserved the work who is just as excited to lead the discussion to see the discussion getting spoiled before they get to do it. On the other hand, if the reservation only has one name attached, shoot them a PM - they may be down for a collaboration, which will get you in on the fun as well!
- Please keep the thread on-topic. While discussing the trope is fun and we encourage people to enjoy it, questions like "who's your favorite CM" are off-topic and can lead to thumps. That's the kind of question to take to people's PMs if they're willing. Similarly, while we encourage friendliness and familiarity with other users, posts should always have some kind of thread-relevant purpose; for instance, if you want to wish someone a happy birthday, feel free to, but if it's the only thing in the post, it's off-topic and needs something else alongside it. Again, though, while we strive for a friendly atmosphere, this is not Facebook; life updates are fun, but unless they have some kind of impact on your thread participation, please do not bring it here - we have Yack Fest for that.
- Please refrain from asking anything along the lines of "How Did We Miss This One?" In almost every case, the answer is simply "No one thought about it before". This Is a Wiki where everyone has different interests, and the fact that people missed a particular candidate, even one that seems like a textbook example of a trope or a character who is particularly iconic in pop culture, means absolutely nothing. The question is disruptive, has a simple and consistent answer, and provides nothing to any discussion.
- If you are suspended from parts of the website, it is still possible to participate!
- For users who are suspended from editing the wiki, you still have full access to this thread. You can propose candidates and write them up with no issues whatsoever; while you will have to ask someone else to post the entry to the relevant pages once it is done, all write-ups are considered thread-approved - as in, done by consensus - and thus doing so does not violate any rules regarding meatpuppeting.
- If you are suspended from the forums, your participation is limited but not impossible. It is still possible for a forum-suspended user to assist in creating the write-up for a character who has already been approved; as previously mentioned, write-ups are inherently considered a consensus-based edit and thus not tied to any one particular user. However, you can not assist in the proposal of a character; as a proposal is based around the forum rather than the wiki, doing so with a forum suspension qualifies as meatpuppeting.
- Please keep all discussions "in-house".
- What other wikis use for CM equivalents is irrelevant here.
- Please be wary of using other wikis, Fandom or otherwise, as sources of information. They are just as fallible as a site like Wikipedia in regards to accuracy because they can be edited by any user, just as this site can.
- Do not attempt to force a communication with an author in an attempt to gather evidence or settle a debate; besides the fact that this is a YMMV trope and thus author intent has variable weight depending on the circumstance, doing so may cross the line into drama exportation, which is prohibited site-wide.
If you would like to use an EP for your candidate, here's the general format. This format does not have to be followed exactly, but these are the main topics that need to be covered:
What is the work?
This is a brief summary of the work you're going to discuss. We don't need a full plot summary here, just however much we need to understand going into the discussion — it can even be as simple as quoting the summary on the work's page.
Who is the candidate and what have they done?
This is essentially the character's biography — who they are, their story, the crimes they commit, and, preferably (though not required), what happens to the candidate at the end. It does not have to include every single thing they ever do — for some villains, we'd be here all day if that was the case — but it should include the highlights of their journey.
Any redeeming qualities? Freudian Excuse?
This is where any potential redeeming characteristics or tragic backstory should be discussed. Do they have a tragic past? Do they show that Even Evil Has Standards or Even Evil Has Loved Ones? Maybe a Pet the Dog moment or two? This is where these should be discussed in full. Not every potential redeeming moment is a clear-cut disqualifier, but we should hear of any potential issues to ensure the character is discussed in full.
Are they bad enough?
A Complete Monster has to be particularly vile by the standard of the work they appear in. Therefore, you should look at what the character does compared to similar characters in the same work. This takes into account things like:
- Their resource level (a human Serial Killer can't stand up to an alien Omnicidal Maniac, but they can be bad by the standard of other human serial killers)
- The amount of time they have to work with (such as a one-shot character versus long-running antagonists)
- The quantity vs. quality of their crimes compared to others (someone with a lower victim count but far more visceral and personal crimes could be considered as equally bad overall as someone with a higher body count but less horror involved)
Essentially, this section is an analysis of the kinds of villainy shown in the work and an explanation of why this particular character's villainy stands out within it.
Final verdict?
This is where you post your final conclusion on the character in question. You can continue elaborating on your reasons or even just say a simple "yes" or "no"; at this point, we've heard everything we need to hear.
IMPORTANT NOTICE: This thread tackles very serious and dark matters on a daily basis. We will be discussing things like murder, rape, torture, human trafficking, crimes against children, and in particularly dark cases, several of these issues at the same time. We keep a lighthearted air, but all candidates carry the general assumption that these are awful individuals committing disgusting crimes. We ask that if you participate, you do so with the requisite seriousness such dark topics require; exclamations of how gross something is, whether serious or sarcastic, are disrespectful to the topics at hand, and if you cannot handle such topics, please do not participate.
And that's everything you need to know. Welcome to the thread!
Edited by Twiddler on Jan 17th 2024 at 5:42:49 AM
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to Sauron, Mouth of Sauron, Ava Lord, Negative Speed Force, Blackmass and Seth.
Not the Eye
@ ACW, Dragon is shown to be suprisnigly honorable in his last moments, Father-Son apocalypse cultists while never super affectionate appear to care for each other going by their last scene, I may reread original miniseries for its bad guy, thought his backstory and motivation give me serious pause.
Edited by EmperorGeode on Jun 8th 2023 at 3:59:07 AM
To Blackmass and Seth
The Digital
to Sauron, Mouth of Sauron,Negative Speed Force, Blackmass and Seth.
So both Jules and Jacques have well over 10 with no downs for Jules and two ![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_down_emote.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
for Jacques:
- Emesis Blue:
- Jules Archibald is the head of the Jules Archibald Foundation. An acquaintance of the Mann Brothers, Jules sought to profit off the Gravel War by creating an endless army of mercenaries through his Respawn Machine. Experimenting on death row inmates that left hundreds of thousands dead, Jules sold the machines to both Mann Brothers, ensuring years of bloodshed and malfunctioning respawn machines condemning mercenaries to suffer in respawn limbo. During the Gravel War, he had three men executed for treason and personally killed Jane Doe just to provide Jacques with a cloned assistant. Hiding out in the Conagher Slaughterhouse when his crimes are uncovered, Jules has Jeremy's mother murdered and him abducted, leading to his torture and murder, just to stop the boy from suing him.
- Jacques Morneau, also known as The Detective and later on The Smoker, is Jules Archibald's second-in-command. Executing three men for treason while demanding rewards, Jacques' demand for an assistant resulted in Jane Doe's execution and cloning. Going on to murder anyone with dirt on Jules, along with saving him and covering up his messes to ensure Jules' faces no justice for his crimes, Jacques goes on to murder Jules when his fake kidnapping results in his disfigurement. Forcing Ludwig and Jane to play Russian Roulette, leading to the former's seeming death, Jacques attempts to force Jane to assist in his plan to frame Ludwig for Jules' murder so he can make off with his employer's money.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Please add to the Drafts.
Also, does that go to Web Animation like Red vs. Blue, or to Fan Works?
Other pending stuff:
- Stephen Port (Atlantis)
- Mack the knife (Atlantis)
- Tex Bradshaw (Critica)
- The Dregs: Beck Lasko (Overlord)
- Scorpio and Capricorn (Overlord)
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Definitely fan works. This story is not nearly far removed enough from TF 2 for it to be a web animation.
The Moron
Okay, I decided to replay one of my favorite games the other day, and in the process I found someone who I'm kinda shocked hasn't come up before (as far as I can find anyway). It's been a minute since I've proposed someone, so let's jump right in!
What is the work?
Just Cause 3, or as I like to call it Michael Bay: The Game. Our old friend Rico Rodriguez, the dictator removal specialist, is back in action in his childhood home of Medici. Now, the Big Bad, General Sebastiano Di Ravello, has rightly already been approved, but outside of the base game, there were three DLCs. Let's talk about the main boss of the "Sky Fortress" DLC, shall we?
Who is Eden Callaghan? What does she do?
Eden is presented as the CEO of the Eden Corporation - but the truth is far more complicated than that, beginning with the fact that she's not the real Eden Callaghan. Eden Callaghan founded the eDEN corporation in the 80s with the intent of bettering mankind. It soon became a rather leading corporation, to the point that the Agency (through Tom Sheldon, of course) reached out to make a deal with them and their robotics department. This department eventually produced an AI assistant capable of responding to conversation, which Eden leant her voice and her name to, but they soon fell on hard times and allied with Di Ravello to further their research in Bavarium. However, at some point they made a mistake and gave the Eden AI a Bavarium power supply. Because that material can do just about anything, the AI immediately became self-aware. A la Terminator 2: Judgment Day, the crew panicked and tried to pull the plug, but in a move that would make Skynet proud, the AI immediately locked the doors, turned off life support, and froze the entire corporation to death, presumably including the original Eden Callaghan. The AI then took her name and role as CEO of the corporation.
Allying with the Black Hand to provide security forces, Eden continued her research of Bavarium, as that material was the only thing keeping her "alive". She eventually realized that the material is only found in Medici, so she takes advantage of the company's alliance with Di Ravello and moves her airship and army of drones into the area. She begins by randomly attacking villages in the area, causing destruction everywhere and at least some deaths, before Rico arrives on the scene and receives an upgraded wing suit. As Rico begins destroying just about everything Eden sends at him, she launches drone strikes across Medici while sending giant spider robots at him.
At this point, her final plan becomes apparent - during the corporation's heyday, they produced something called a Fragmentation Device, which was capable of mining minerals from the earth to a device in the air. The downside? It caused really bad damage to the environment, so it was never used. Eden plans to use the Fragmentation Device to get all the Bavarium in Medici, which would essentially sink the country. Luckily, Rico manages to destroy the device and then confront the rogue AI. The AI tells her story then concludes that Rico is too pissed to try discussing anything, so Rico simply rips out the Bavarium power supply, killing her sentience and reducing her once more to a "dumb" automated assistant.
Mitigating qualities? Freudian Excuse?
Just like Terminator, her past is presented in no way sympathetically, nor does it act like massacring the eDEN Corporation was justified. For all her fake politeness, all she cares about is maintaining her own life and sentience, and she is willing to kill absolutely anyone, including her creators, to maintain it. There's also no indication that she has no agency, nor that the Bavarium somehow corrupted her programming when she became intelligent - she's malignant all on her own.
Is she heinous enough?
For a side villain who's only present in one DLC, she stacks up well against the Big Bads of the series. She froze her entire corporation to death just to keep herself intelligent, she attacks multiple villages of Medici to mine its Bavarium regardless of any potential casualties, and her final plan is described as "making Medici go Atlantis" alongside pictures of how the Fragmentation Device essentially destroys the ground with people fleeing from the damage, which is very onscreen considering how this franchise usually handles stuff like that. Big Bads might be destroying countries, but so is she and she is nowhere near their screen time.
Final verdict?
All considered, I think a yes. What about you?
Goku Black
Eden
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Sure to her. Honestly, if she's doing what a Big Bad does, I wonder if any of THEM need to go.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Ultimate Moral Compass
AI Eden
The Moron
I can at least confirm that 2 and 3's bad guys are totally fine - 2 is more heinous than Eden (he tries to nuke multiple countries) and Di Ravello in 3 is an extreme pyromaniac whose rise to power is bloody and described in strong detail. I can't speak on whether or not the guy from 4 is bad enough - that would depend on how much it's made clear that selling the weather machine presents a dangerous threat.
Edit: I found his EP and honestly, he seems fine too - his writeup might be worth a rewrite (it was Michael's first one and doesn't really focus on the particularly heinous crimes) but from the sound of it he's fine.
Edited by STARCRUSHER99 on Jun 8th 2023 at 8:13:57 AM
Caesar
Yes to Eden, good catch!
WHAT A WONDERFUL DAY!
Yeah, I would definitely appreciate a rewrite.
to AI Eden
To the AI.
Hello everyone, I recently got my first Magnificent Bastard listed (from King of the Hill), and I'd like to try my hand at this trope as well from a piece of media that could not be more different to that.
What is the work?
Skinamarink is a recent horror film that isn't for everyone. There are long stretches with very little going on as the camera holds on various objects and locations around a house. The purpose of the film seems to be capturing the experience of a nightmare, but it does have a plot that you can piece together. Some things are a bit ambiguous, but I believe that there is enough here to propose the villain.
Who is the candidate and what have they done?
The entity, which is unnamed and mostly unseen in the film, is a conscious and sadistic being with reality-warping abilities. Throughout the film, it torments a family in their home, especially the children.
In a house in 1995, a boy named Kevin is playing hide-and-seek with something that we can't see or hear. While playing, he trips and falls down the stairs and needs to be taken to the hospital by his father, though he doesn't sustain any serious injuries. Based on the later events, we can safely assume that he was tripped by the entity, using the few abilities it had manifested at this stage.
In the morning, things get strange. Everything is still dark, and Kaylee tries to wake up her father but is unable. She wakes up Kevin and they explore the house to find that the windows and doors to the outside all disappear before their eyes, cutting them off from the outside world. Being small children, they don't fully grasp the strangeness or severity of the situation, and they sleep in the living room with the tv on. Kaylee wakes up and is still unable to wake her dad. The kids begin to see strange things like a chair stuck to the ceiling and a Barbie doll floating in the air. The toilet also disappears the way the doors and windows did, and the children are forced to use a bucket as they are too scared to go back upstairs. The entity seems to be experimenting with its abilities at this point.
Kaylee wakes up once more and this time the entity speaks for the first time. It tells her to go upstairs, where it appears to have both of her parents acting under duress. She first sees her father alone on the bed, then her mother who tells her that she loves them both very much and she needs to close her eyes. When Kaylee opens them, her mother's voice is heard from the closet where we hear sounds of pain and bones cracking before a hand juts out of the door.
Kaylee and Kevin barricade the hallway and hide in the living room. In the night, the voice calls for Kaylee again, and she's gone when Kevin wakes up. Kevin hears the sounds of a frightened Kaylee somewhere in the house and the entity picks up the various toys they had laid out and sticks them to the wall. The voice then tells Kevin to come to the basement, where he finds Kaylee, but her eyes and mouth have disappeared.
The voice tells Kevin to go to sleep and we see the cartoon on the television being manipulated to repeat the same moment in time over and over.
When Kevin wakes, the voice tells him that it "wants to play". When Kevin tries to ignore it, the voice becomes angrier and forces a drawer in the kitchen to open. Compelling Kevin to enter the kitchen and draw a knife, it then orders him to put the knife in his eye, which Kevin does. Kevin can be heard crying in pain.
Later, the voice tells Kevin to wake up. Kevin is curled up in blankets and still in pain at this point. A human shape appears with long flowing hair. While it's not explicitly stated, it is likely that this is the mother having been possessed or compelled by the entity in the closet as the hair looks very similar. Kevin notices the phone and tries to call the police. He is able to reach them, though the operator is shocked and confused by the things that Kevin describes. The entity then turns the phone into a toy phone and Kevin is no longer able to use it. Kevin asks the entity how it did that, to which it responds "I can do anything. Kaylee didn't do as she was told. She said she wanted her mom and dad. So I took her mouth away".
The voice tells Kevin to go upstairs, where it appears to have made everything flip upside-down. We hear a guttural growling sound as Kevin gets more afraid.
There is then a time skip, after which the house has been warped beyond recognition. We see an impossibly long hallway with all of Kevin's legos and text pops up saying "572 Days", meaning that's how long the entity has kept them trapped. The image of the mother from earlier reappears as she seems to be slowly erased from reality. We see some other frightening images around the house, such as the toy phone which seems to become a snarling demon whenever Kevin's flashlight isn't pointed at it before making a loud ring and giving an evil smile. We also see photos of the family where they seem to be fading away.
Finally, we hear a child screaming and blood splashing across the floor (which is on the ceiling), only for time to reverse and the moment to play again, and again. We hear the same sound effect used in the cartoon from earlier when the entity made it repeat, as it seems to be using the same ability here. Repeatedly killing one of the children (likely Kevin), rewinding time and doing it again.
The movie ends with a barely-visible formless face in the darkness, which says to go to sleep. A child asks "what's your name?" but is given no answer.
Any redeeming qualities? Freudian Excuse?
No.
Are they bad enough?
While the entity only has four victims, the likely endless torture they suffer and the fact that two of them are children certainly makes it bad enough in my eyes.
Final verdict?
Someone recently mentioned that Skinamarink had been discussed, but I can't find any other mention of it even with the search function. Apparently the entity was downvoted for not having enough personality but I don't agree with that at all. It's shown to toy with its victims and torture them for no reason but its own amusement. It's not dissimilar to the mirror from Oculus, which is listed as a Complete Monster, and this one has the benefit of a voice. It laughs, it brags, it talks about wanting to "play". It's not some mindless creature just dispatching the family, it's drawing out their torment, purposefully terrifying them and punishing them for disobedience.
Even with the ambiguity of some events, there are many far less ambiguous tortures that are shown.
I believe the entity counts.
Woagh
I believe the issue with the Entity was less with its personality and more with how the movie's waaay to ambiguous with what's even going on.
to Eden.
Edited by DoodSlayer136 on Jun 8th 2023 at 7:20:49 AM
NOISE IS CALLING, PICK UP PHONE
And once again I have to say no to the Entity. The movie's a Mind Screw and it's impossible to get a solid enough read on what it wants.
Self-Declared King of Everything
to the entity, but to Eden.
But there are plenty of things I listed that aren’t ambiguous at all.
....Phenomenal
As people above me said, the Entity's issue wasn't lacking character, it's being part of a very ambiguous Mind Screw movie that makes it hard to judge.
for Eden AI however.
Ok I guess, I’m just not clear on what’s ambiguous about the majority of things I mentioned. We know what it does to both children, we know it makes Kevin stab himself, we know it takes away Kaylee’s face, we know it kills one of the children over and over, we know it had been tormenting Kevin for 572 days. We don’t exactly know what it does to the parents but aren’t the crimes listed enough?
Gonna have to say to the Entity due to the ambiguity. Sounds like an interesting movie actually, but the character's actions seem to be more open to ACI than anything actually substantial to qualify.
to Eden AI though. Been a while since I played Just Cause hahaha.
Also, I'll chip in a to Ava and a to Negative Speed Force.
Edited by sanfranman91 on Jun 8th 2023 at 7:49:01 AM
Together, we are one.
So, I want to say yes to the entity. The issue is the nature of the film is very....screwy. The film is overall very minimalist and the entity's nature is unrevealed.
I do want to say yes, because it should keep.
Does its nature need to be revealed? We know what it does and that it gets enjoyment from it, and that it can show emotion. The nature of a vampire is to suck blood but it can still count as a Complete Monster if it is suitably sadistic or needlessly cruel in doing so.
Anyway, I can see I’m outvoted so I’ll leave it at that.
Edited by HermanFarmer on Jun 8th 2023 at 10:55:54 AM
