Old Complete Monster cleanup thread
Welcome to the Complete Monster proposal thread! This is the thread where new Complete Monster examples are vetted, approved, and written up. If you're looking for the general cleanup thread (for cuts, rewrites, expansions, and the like), please go here
Important: Before suggesting any new examples, please read the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List; if you have any questions, the odds are high they are answered there. Additionally, please check here for the earliest date a work can be discussed (usually two weeks from the U.S. release date) and whether the work has already been reserved by another user.
Here is how the process works:
- If you have a candidate to propose, you can simply come right in and propose them! If the character's run is brief, such as a single issue of a comic book, then a simple summary of their actions and any potential redeeming qualities will be enough; for longer-running candidates, an effortpost (EP) might be helpful for organizing the proposal. An EP is not outright required, but please be mindful that if a post becomes too clunky and unorganized, it can be very hard for other people to follow.
- After the proposal, there will be a 72-hour discussion and voting period, where people may ask questions and vote on the candidate. The number of upvotes must outnumber the downvotes by at least five for the character to be considered "approved".
- Three days after the proposal has been made, if the character has been approved, you may post the writeup (the text to be posted on the trope page itself) on the thread and send it to the drafts page. Your candidate will soon be added to the CM subpage. If the work has a page, you should add your candidate to the relevant YMMV page. Voila! It's that simple!
Outside of this process, we do have a few ground rules:
- To keep the thread moving at a reasonable pace, there are some restrictions on when a proposal can be made. There should only be a maximum of four EPs posted both per page and per hour to ensure that nothing gets lost in the shuffle; additionally, each individual troper should only be proposing or writing up characters from a maximum of three works at a time (from initial proposals to end of their voting period). If your proposal would fall outside of either of these guidelines, we'd like to ask you to please wait until they would fit within; feel free to type them up on an outside document, and then when the time comes, you can just copy, paste, and post!
- No plagiarism of any kind. This is a very serious matter site-wide, as the website could get in actual legal trouble over this; as a result, this can very quickly lead to mod intervention. This can take many different forms:
- Direct plagiarism, i.e. wholesale copying. This is not only the easiest to find, but is also the most likely to warrant quick moderator intervention. To be clear, quoting in some places is perfectly acceptable, but it has to be very clear you're quoting from something else and it cannot be anything longer than a sentence or two - if you're quoting an entire work summary from Wikipedia, no one is going to believe you've actually consumed the work, so even if you cite your source, your candidate will be downvoted anyway.
- Self-plagiarism. Even if you can prove that you wrote the same text in both places, the site itself can't contain any of the duplicated text. If you already wrote something once before, it's not too hard to write it a second time.
- Using another site's work as a template for a proposal. Just because you don't copy and paste something directly doesn't mean it's any harder to detect if you're basing parts or all of your proposal on text someone else wrote. To be clear, this doesn't violate site rules and won't lead to mod intervention, but just like if you directly plagiarize, no one will believe you've consumed the work if you're clearly basing your proposal on something else. This thread largely operates on the honor system, and tweaking someone else's work to pass it off as your own is one of the fastest ways to lose trust.
- Votes must be for specific candidates, meaning no blanket voting (i.e. "yes to everyone I missed").
- If you are the first person to downvote a candidate, please provide an explanation of why when you do so. We're here for discussions above all, and a hit-and-run downvote doesn't facilitate anything.
- If a work is already reserved by another user, please don't comment on the work or any potential characters worth discussion before the discussion date. We know how exciting it is when a work has a keeper that you're waiting to talk about, but it's not fair to the person who reserved the work who is just as excited to lead the discussion to see the discussion getting spoiled before they get to do it. On the other hand, if the reservation only has one name attached, shoot them a PM - they may be down for a collaboration, which will get you in on the fun as well!
- Please keep the thread on-topic. While discussing the trope is fun and we encourage people to enjoy it, questions like "who's your favorite CM" are off-topic and can lead to thumps. That's the kind of question to take to people's PMs if they're willing. Similarly, while we encourage friendliness and familiarity with other users, posts should always have some kind of thread-relevant purpose; for instance, if you want to wish someone a happy birthday, feel free to, but if it's the only thing in the post, it's off-topic and needs something else alongside it. Again, though, while we strive for a friendly atmosphere, this is not Facebook; life updates are fun, but unless they have some kind of impact on your thread participation, please do not bring it here - we have Yack Fest for that.
- Please refrain from asking anything along the lines of "How Did We Miss This One?" In almost every case, the answer is simply "No one thought about it before". This Is a Wiki where everyone has different interests, and the fact that people missed a particular candidate, even one that seems like a textbook example of a trope or a character who is particularly iconic in pop culture, means absolutely nothing. The question is disruptive, has a simple and consistent answer, and provides nothing to any discussion.
- If you are suspended from parts of the website, it is still possible to participate!
- For users who are suspended from editing the wiki, you still have full access to this thread. You can propose candidates and write them up with no issues whatsoever; while you will have to ask someone else to post the entry to the relevant pages once it is done, all write-ups are considered thread-approved - as in, done by consensus - and thus doing so does not violate any rules regarding meatpuppeting.
- If you are suspended from the forums, your participation is limited but not impossible. It is still possible for a forum-suspended user to assist in creating the write-up for a character who has already been approved; as previously mentioned, write-ups are inherently considered a consensus-based edit and thus not tied to any one particular user. However, you can not assist in the proposal of a character; as a proposal is based around the forum rather than the wiki, doing so with a forum suspension qualifies as meatpuppeting.
- Please keep all discussions "in-house".
- What other wikis use for CM equivalents is irrelevant here.
- Please be wary of using other wikis, Fandom or otherwise, as sources of information. They are just as fallible as a site like Wikipedia in regards to accuracy because they can be edited by any user, just as this site can.
- Do not attempt to force a communication with an author in an attempt to gather evidence or settle a debate; besides the fact that this is a YMMV trope and thus author intent has variable weight depending on the circumstance, doing so may cross the line into drama exportation, which is prohibited site-wide.
If you would like to use an EP for your candidate, here's the general format. This format does not have to be followed exactly, but these are the main topics that need to be covered:
What is the work?
This is a brief summary of the work you're going to discuss. We don't need a full plot summary here, just however much we need to understand going into the discussion — it can even be as simple as quoting the summary on the work's page.
Who is the candidate and what have they done?
This is essentially the character's biography — who they are, their story, the crimes they commit, and, preferably (though not required), what happens to the candidate at the end. It does not have to include every single thing they ever do — for some villains, we'd be here all day if that was the case — but it should include the highlights of their journey.
Any redeeming qualities? Freudian Excuse?
This is where any potential redeeming characteristics or tragic backstory should be discussed. Do they have a tragic past? Do they show that Even Evil Has Standards or Even Evil Has Loved Ones? Maybe a Pet the Dog moment or two? This is where these should be discussed in full. Not every potential redeeming moment is a clear-cut disqualifier, but we should hear of any potential issues to ensure the character is discussed in full.
Are they bad enough?
A Complete Monster has to be particularly vile by the standard of the work they appear in. Therefore, you should look at what the character does compared to similar characters in the same work. This takes into account things like:
- Their resource level (a human Serial Killer can't stand up to an alien Omnicidal Maniac, but they can be bad by the standard of other human serial killers)
- The amount of time they have to work with (such as a one-shot character versus long-running antagonists)
- The quantity vs. quality of their crimes compared to others (someone with a lower victim count but far more visceral and personal crimes could be considered as equally bad overall as someone with a higher body count but less horror involved)
Essentially, this section is an analysis of the kinds of villainy shown in the work and an explanation of why this particular character's villainy stands out within it.
Final verdict?
This is where you post your final conclusion on the character in question. You can continue elaborating on your reasons or even just say a simple "yes" or "no"; at this point, we've heard everything we need to hear.
IMPORTANT NOTICE: This thread tackles very serious and dark matters on a daily basis. We will be discussing things like murder, rape, torture, human trafficking, crimes against children, and in particularly dark cases, several of these issues at the same time. We keep a lighthearted air, but all candidates carry the general assumption that these are awful individuals committing disgusting crimes. We ask that if you participate, you do so with the requisite seriousness such dark topics require; exclamations of how gross something is, whether serious or sarcastic, are disrespectful to the topics at hand, and if you cannot handle such topics, please do not participate.
And that's everything you need to know. Welcome to the thread!
Edited by Twiddler on Jan 17th 2024 at 5:42:49 AM
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Yes to Red.
For FBI, I know the first quote is about Burke; who's doing the speaking?
Edited by ACW on Feb 25th 2023 at 2:47:29 PM
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Yes to Red, good work man!
Yes to Red
So, okay, my last WC one for now. The Warchief.
Blackhand.
Who is Blackhand?
An orc born in Draenor, Blackhand was he first great warchief of the Horde. A skilled warrior and one of the greatest raiders of the orcs, Blakchand gained a reputation for ferocity and ruthlessness, beating down the ogres. Blackhand led his followers to countless victories, with one orc as his inseparable right hand: Orgrim. Blackhand was later convinced the Draeni race were their enemies and proceeded to insitute attacks against them.
It was soon after that Blackhand was approached by the ambitious and evil protege of the great shaman Ner'zhul: Gul'dan. Gul'dan swayed Blackhand to his side with promises of power and conquest. Now, history usually portrays this as B Lackhand being nothing but Gul'dan's puppet. Not so. Blackhand leaps into corruption feet first and gleefully accepts the offer, but makes clear that he does it of his volition...in fact, at times in the book, Gul'dan is very worried Blackhand will forget he's useful and kill him if he's wrathful enough....and Blackhand and Gul'dan both plot to dispose of one another eventually.
Blackhand helped to cut the orcs off from the benevolent nature spirits and turn them to demon worship. Blackhand had his followers drink the blood of the demon Mannoroth, damning them to monstrosity, artificially aged his children to be more useful, and then ordered a horrific attack upon the Draeni.
The result was genocide. The Draeni were massacred, butchered, draeni women rounded up to be raped in breeding experiments. The only survivors fled Draenor. It was then that, with demonic aid, Gul'dan led the Horde through Azeroth and Blackhand initiated the battle of the Kingdom of Azeroth. Entire villages are massacred, innocents tortured and butchered. The entirety of land around Stormwind was butchered.Under the command of the heroic knight Anduin Lothar, the humans struck back and Blackhand almost died in the ambush. Blackhand angrily killed two warlocks who saved his life, blaming them for the disaster.
Blackhand's terrible boss tendencies continued: he only spared two major chieftains when he realized their clans would revolt. He exiled the Frostwolf clan for defying him with Gul'dan, and the two had the clan leader Durotan murdered when Durotan went to his best friend Orgrim...his daughter Griselda, sick of her dad's abuse, fled with an ogre boyfriend? Blackhand had them killed.
When Gul'dan fell into a coma, Orgrim, disgusted at Blackhand's malice and evil, revolted at what he'd been told by Durotan, challenged the Warchief to a battle. The two fought for horus in a vicious Mak'Gora, a ritual duel of the orcs.
And Orgrim defeated Blackhand, decapitating him and leaving him behind in the annals of history.
Mitigating history?
Blackhand is, by far, the most evil "warrior" orc there is. Now, Gul'dan has all his crimes but Blackhand is a willing collaborator and facilitator. He's brutal, cruel, violent, enacts mass rape, genocide, tries to wipe out humankind...
His care for his kids is nonexistent. He ages Rend and Maim to be useful soldiers and has Griselda killed. He pushes the orcs to be servants of the demons and believes only in power and glory. There is a comic that shows him caring about his clan, but this is for "Warlords of Draenor," an alternate reality Blackhand...and even if he did, all canon shows that he threw that away for power later. He cares nothing for his own orcs.
Conclusion?
A keeper.
Not the Eye
Yep to Red
And Yes to Blackhand
Edited by EmperorGeode on Feb 25th 2023 at 11:52:11 AM
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Blackhand. I take it his movie version doesn't count?
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Yes to Blackhand.
Should all 3 just be sorted alphabetically like the others?
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
There's a scene in the film where Blackhand, horribleness aside, shows he has a trace of honor. When Gul'dan is having a harder time fighting Durotan than he anticipated, he tells Blackhand to help him, and Blackhand says Gul'dan will honor their traditions and orders the duel to continue one-on-one
Edited by Lightysnake on Feb 25th 2023 at 11:57:51 AM
Yes to Blackhand
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
I would say he did this out of spite to Gul'dan, due to being tired of Gul'dan treating him like shit, but he give some somber look at Frostwolf clan flag, indicating that he felt some sorrow or something like that
2:35 time mark for the moment
Edited by VeryVileVillian on Feb 25th 2023 at 11:01:31 PM
Ah, I see. Kinda strange though as they gave Blackhand a redeeming quality in the film, but kept Gul'Dan as his normal CM self.
Edited by Michealthehero21 on Feb 25th 2023 at 12:00:04 PM
Ultimate Moral Compass
Red and Blackhand
Either way, I think Blackhand, even if you think he's bad enough in film, has clear redeeming qualities whether it be guilt, honor, or a mix of both.
Skullcrusher and Blackhand.
Well, figured that I might as well do the EP on Umbrasyl from The Legend of Vox Machina just to see how the thread feels.
Who is he? What does he do?
Umbrasyl in an ancient black dragon, and The Heavy of the Chroma Conclave, a faction of chromatic dragons who seek to conquer Tal'Dorei. Kicking off the attack on Emon alongside Raishan, Umbrasyl soars through the skys and rains acid to painfully dissolve the civilians of Emon, as well as causing a cave-in in the castle that seemingly kills Lady Allura, Kima, and Soverign Uriel's family. (Though Allura manages to teleport them to safety. Soverign Uriel at this point was killed by Raishan). After he and the rest of the Conclave razed Emon, Thordak tasks Umbrasyl to collect treasure for him.
Later, Umbrasyl is approached by Anna Ripley, who tells him about the Vestiges of Divergence. Believing he can make use out of them, Umbrasyl tracks down Mythcarver, recently obtained by Vox Machina, and attacks them for it, murdering the sphinx Kamlijiori who gave it to them in the process. Additionally, to obtain treasue for Thordak, Umbrasyl finds and enslaves the Herd of Storms, having them raid the city of Westruun, but for all treasure to be offered to Umbrasyl.
When an offering from the Herd deemed too small, he kills a member of the Herd as an example to Kevdak, threatening to wipe out the entire Herd if the offering is too small next time. In truth, he plans to kill Kevdak anyway and forcefully take his vestige, the Titanstone Gauntlets, while continuing to have the Herd of Storms under his enslavement forever. Retreating to his lair after an ambush from Vox Machina and the Herd which resulted in dozens of Herd members' deaths, Umbrasyl retreats to his lair, and when Thordak continues to berate Umbrasyl for targeting the Vestiges rather than collecting treasure, forcefully cuts off connection with Thordak and implies his intentions to betray and kill Thordak with the Vestiges. (It's not explicitly stated, though Ripley did discuss with him about it). He confronts Vox Machina once again, and after a fight that nearly results in the deaths of the whole party, Scanlan succesfully kills him with Mythcarver, stabbing Umbrasyl in the eye and letting out a burst of energy.
Any mitigating factors?
Not really. He does treat Ripley like a partner rather than a slave as he did to Kevdak, but there's no implication he cares about her.
Heinous by the standards of the story?
This is where it gets tricky. Technically, he's the most heinous villain in Season 2, murdering countless of civilians, enslaving the Herd, and fully stating his intentions that he'll continue to have them slaughter under his name. But at the end of the day,the worst he does is attack settlements, which is pretty standard Chroma Conclave fare. Unlike Brimscythe, who was had nowhere near the power or resources of the rest of the Conclave and despite being a member, his machinations were entirely his own, Umbrasyl is ultimately just doing what we know the rest of the Conclave is doing, we just happen to see more of it on his end. There's the implication that he intends to betray Thordak, but it's ultimately just that, an implication. You could argue that the enslavement of the Herd of Storms and having them continue to slaughter under his name might be enough, but I dunno...
Final Thoughts?
Tentative no from me. Feel free to give me your thoughts though!
Edited by Awesomekid42 on Feb 25th 2023 at 3:27:18 PM
Goku Black
Hell yeah to Red. I watched that awhile ago (I missed the first twenty minutes so couldn't do him myself).
Blackhand
Lies and Violence!
Two things I would like to note:
- While all the Conclave are raiding—we see Vorugal delivering a giant chest of treasure in the finale—I think Umbrasyl's pillaging of Westruun is supposed to be presented as their biggest outside operation. We see the Whitestone war map in episode ten, with Umbrasyl all the way out on the other end of the continent while the other three dragons are believed to simply be securing their hold of the area surrounding Emon.
- I believe his ultimate end goal once he collected enough gold was to melt Westruun and everyone in it rather than just kill Kevdak and keep the Herd in his service.
That said, like I mentioned before, I personally would like to wait for season 3, where we'll get more details on what Vorugal's up to. Trying to establish a standard for the ancient dragons seems futile right now when the others haven't had the chance to do much yet. Even then, if anything's really going to make him stand out it will probably be whatever he and Ripley were planning (mass producing guns to spread the destructive power of firearms throughout the world, I believe?)
...But, like Awesome says, with where the cartoon is at the moment he's nonetheless technically the most heinous of the dragons besides Thordak himself (obviously, Raishan's also going to be worse, but I don't think the show has revealed she was the one who freed Thordak yet). I'm abstaining, but I don't have any issues if he goes up now. If he does, we can always reevaluate in a year.
Yes to Atruum, Vitiate, Skullcrusher, Blackhand, and Red.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
to Red and Blackhand
You know I’m fine giving Umbrasyl a tentative since he’s shown to be worse here and is responsible for much of the troubles occurring throughout season 2, especially since he serves as Kevdak’s boss (whose already an approved keeper here)
Edited by G-Editor on Feb 25th 2023 at 4:34:47 AM
Yeah, I think we're a good wait and see on Umbrasyl. He's really just on the cusp, and it remains to be seen. If he overshadows Vorugal, I'd definitely be good for him to go up.
The original Blackhand gets a since he's not an Unwitting Pawn for Gul'dan. But not the other Blackhands because they at least have a sense of honor. I should also mention that Saurfang once stated that Sylvanas Windrunner inherited "Blackhand's bloody legacy" when she became Warchief, which became the catalyst for the Warchief mantle to be retired permanently. Take that what you will of Blackhand's evil.
Nekro Skullcrusher is a bit tricker since Deathwing the Destroyer was there overshadowing him with bigger, more horrifying ambitions regarding the Red Dragonflight. But since he's technically the leader of the Dragonmaw clan in that story and knows the Dragons are sentient and his superiors Zuluhed and Orgrim were more hands-off with him, I'll give a
Edited by Shadao on Feb 25th 2023 at 1:45:45 AM
Not the Eye
I Lean a it being best to see how Vorugal performs.
Goku Black
Maybe it's best to wait till The next season. To see how all,the members compare to each other.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
OG!Blackhand and Nekrosh
Edited by xie323 on Feb 25th 2023 at 1:48:09 AM
Lies and Violence!
Just to clarify now, Vorugal probably won't count even if does end up worse. While his children have been adapted out, campaign 2, which is also getting an animated adaptation, introduces his widowed mate who is still grieving his death a decade later. Obviously, he's too dead for us to see what their relationship was actually like, but nothing indicates it wasn't a genuine "courtship."
Ok, now who's ready for another Scravok collab?
What's the work?
Dead in Tombstone is a horror-western starring Danny Trejo as vicious outlaw Guerrero de la Cruz, who—after being betrayed and murdered by his own gang—is given new life by Lucifer himself (played by Mickey Rourke of all people lmao) to hunt down and murder those who betrayed him, giving us our gunslingin', spur-janglin' flick.
Who is Red? What has he done?
Red "Rojo" Cavanaugh—Anthony Michael Hall himself—is the half-brother of Guerrero and the traitor who kills him. Having run with Guerrero for years, Red grows tired of taking orders and being typical outlaws, and so, when Guerrero's gang plan to rob the town of Edendale, Red makes his move.
Turning the simple heist into a bloodbath by shooting unarmed innocents, Red betrays and kills Guerrero, taking control of the gang and proclaiming his intent to take over Edendale as his own, personal kingdom. Red renames the town "Tombstone" and, for one year, he and his run rampant in the town, tormenting, beating and raping whoever they like, whenever they like.
When Guerrero is revived by Lucifer to seek his vengeance, Red begins hearing of his men being picked off one-by-one. He callously threatens his own men with death should they fail to find who is responsible, and when he realizes Guerrero has returned, Red promises to send him back into the ground. Red sparks a city-wide fight with Guerrero in which many innocents are caught in the crossfire, and Red ultimately takes Cat, the widowed, gunslinger wife of the town sheriff that Red murdered, hostage.
Planning to rape Cat and then let his entire gang of men have a turn, Red later guns down his financier partner Judah Clark for badmouthing him. Red gets into a final gunfight with Guerrero, and ultimately is killed by his brother, Red last seen at the end of the flick in the clutches of Lucifer ready for a long, long afterlife of torment for his wicked deeds....
Mitigating features?
None to discuss, he insults his own mother as a whore repeatedly and his relationship with Guerrero is utterly one of evil and jealousy. Guerrero points out that he's practically raised Red, and hell the film opens with Guerrero saving Red's life from hanging...and Red repays him by stabbing him in the back.
Heinousness?
So, the sequel's villain who Scraggle will be covering, absolutely outstrips Red in bodycount and worldwide intentions. But he's got supernatural backing, and he's not a rapist fuck like Red. Red turns Edendale into a Wretched Hive where rape and beatings are commonplace, he murders multiple innocent people, betrays and kills his partner Judah, and he plans to turn Cat into a Sex Slave for himself and his men. For his niche and resources, he passes.
Final Verdict?
Yes to this guy
lmao
WHAT A WONDERFUL DAY!