Old Magnificent Bastard thread
Welcome to the Magnificent Bastard (MB) cleanup thread! This thread is where we clean up or cut already-existing entries.
If you're looking to add new entries, please see the approval thread.
IMPORTANT: Before you begin any discussions on this thread, please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List
Here, you'll find explanations of the criteria for the trope as well as our rules/procedures for approving and cutting candidates.
What goes through this thread?
- Cut requests. If you believe a MB has been approved and they do not count, this thread is where you propose their removal. To know how to go about this, please see the FAQ folder on the Administrivia page, where the process is explained in detail.
- If we ever need to consider cutting multiple examples without individually reviewing them (e.g. if we discover widespread plagiarism with a particular troper's MBs), the initial discussion will be on this thread and we'll then escalate to the mod team (as described here) to get a formal consensus if we decide to recommend a mass cut.
- If an entry was put on the wrong subpage/YMMV page, you may propose where they should be moved to.
- Full rewrites of existing entries, including expansions, trims, and ground-up rewrites. If your rewrite is approved by the thread, feel free to add it to the drafts page so that other users can check grammar and the like before it is included with the rest of the weekly swaps.
- If an entry on a work's YMMV page doesn't match the entry on the media subpage, you can bring it here to discuss which entry works better.
What does not go through this thread?
- New candidate proposals - as stated before, those are done on this thread.
- Unapproved wicks - if a Troper encounters either of these kinds of wicks, they can be cut with no approval.
- Any MB link on a non-YMMV page - as a YMMV trope, it should not be linked on those pages regardless of any cleanup effort. The only exception is if the wick is being used within the definition of another trope.
- If an MB link on a YMMV page refers to an unapproved character. If it refers to an approved character on any such page, the wick can stay. On the other hand, if the unapproved character being linked to sounds like they might have promise (and you don't feel like checking it out for yourself), feel free to mention it on the approval thread - someone may already know why they don't count, or it could invite a brand new discussion!
- Proposals for images, quotes, and videos of already-approved MBs - quotes and images are proposed on the approval thread, while videos can be uploaded normally as they are screened for approval by the moderation.
- Crosswicking examples to YMMV pages - if an example has already been approved and added to the main page, you do not require any special permission to add the example to a work's YMMV page (assuming the work has a page already). If a YMMV page doesn't exist yet, then you can make it yourself, but either way, feel free to just add the example without asking.
- Small changes to existing entries - these can simply be done on a Troper's own prerogative with no approval.
- Spelling and grammar fixes.
- Pothole changes.
- Minor rewordings.
- Spoiler tags.
While these changes do not require any kind of approval, it is requested that should you make any of these changes, you do one of the following:
- Make the same changes on the relevant Sandbox page, then add the Sandbox to the list at the bottom of the drafts page. This will add the Sandbox to the weekly swaps and ensure that the edits end up on the relevant locked page. If the Sandbox is already listed, then once you make the edits, your job is already done!
- If you don't know how the Sandboxes work or simply don't have the time to find it, then you can simply post on the thread about the changes you made. Someone else can then make the edit on the relevant Sandbox and add it to the weekly swaps.
- Alternatively, you can simply request that the change be made directly to the locked page on the Locked Pages thread. Members of this thread keep track of that one, so we will ensure that the changes are made in the Sandbox so that it doesn't get deleted during the next swap.
Again, these changes don't require any approval, but we prefer to keep the entries on the YMMV pages and the locked pages the same in order to avoid any miscommunication or errors between entries, so if you do make the change, we would greatly appreciate it if you could ensure the change is made on the locked page as well.
As a final note, we do not care what other sites have to say regarding whether or not a character counts. We have our own criteria and they have theirs for their MB equivalents; while they are similar, they are not exactly the same and should not be treated as such. Another site removing a character from their equivalent should not be a reason why a cut is proposed here, and if this is the case, it will likely lead to mod intervention.
Other than this, once again, welcome to the cleanup thread, and we look forward to your contributions!
Edited by Mrph1 on Jan 14th 2024 at 11:36:43 AM
Wrong cleanup thread sorry.
Edited by Klavice on Nov 27th 2023 at 10:56:13 AM
If I want to add an approved entry from one subpage to another (e.x. LEGO DC Super-Villains's entry on Video Games (A to L) to DC Video Games), do I need to ask permission from here, or can I just do it? Sorry if this is the wrong place to ask.
Filthy casual
Found this on Characters.Akagi in the folder for Akagi himself. It was added on page creation back in 2015, so this was presumably before YMMV was its own thing?
- Magnificent Bastard: Akagi pushes this trope up to eleven. Seriously, that's his MO for every type of gamble he's faced with. Analyze the opponent, manipulate the opponent, break the opponent.
I’ll take a potato chip… and EAT IT!
Yeah, probably from back then, I’m surprised that it was up this long
This is also on his character sheet: Guile Hero: Well, insofar as Akagi is the hero of the story. Crisscrosses with his Magnificent Bastard moments. He is this when other people try to screw him over instead of him trying to screw them over. When he retaliates on the other hand...
In honor of Akira Toriyama
Caesar
@HSWONG: Yes, you can go ahead and do that swap!
Anyway, this isn't gonna be a cut post as much as an update that I feel needs to be addressed in regards to Azula from Avatar: The Last Airbender. Write-up for reference:
- Princess Azula shows herself as far more ruthless and manipulative than her elder brother Prince Zuko. Pursuing the Avatar, Azula later conquers the supposedly impregnable city Ba Sing Se by sheer guile after winning its secret police the Dai Li to her side by sheer force of will and charisma. After supposedly killing Avatar Aang, Azula gives her brother credit, knowing that if Aang is found alive then it is Zuko who will suffer the wrath of their father Fire Lord Ozai. While she succumbs to madness at the conclusion of the show, The Search shows Azula begin to recover, even manipulating Zuko when he knows how dangerous she is, before she returns in Smoke and Shadow, having accepted she will never have the throne. Instead, Azula orchestrates a series of plots to force her brother to take a heavy hand, content to manipulate him into being the Fire Lord she believes he should be.
As many know, the show itself ends with Azula having a horrific Villainous Breakdown that thoroughly would disqualify her. However, sequel comics—specifically, Smoke and Shadow—that came later showed that Azula had (mostly) regained a grasp on her sanity, and was now working to supposedly "strengthen" Zuko and make him what she sees as a better ruler. She also obtained a new following of seemingly loyal soldiers, and those comics ended with her on a decently good note of scheming successfully.
Buuuuut that's all changed with the latest comic. Put bluntly? Azula gets utterly trashed in this. Her schemes against Zuko are outright called out as being "pathetic" little acts of terrorism that she's just pulling off for petty chaos against her brother, her Bad Boss behavior causes her "loyal followers" to ditch her, she reveals that she actually does still want the throne for herself and all her talk of "bettering" Zuko was basically malarkey, and she finds herself in a Lotus-Eater Machine with a spirit whose goal is to help people find inner peace if only they will atone for their pasts.
Despite attempt after attempt by the spirit, Azula refuses to accept any responsibility for her past, blames everyone but herself for her defeats, sneers that her "friends" are nothing but losers who don't deserve to survive without her, and all as she goes through an extended mental breakdown. She finally pisses the spirit off completely when she responds to one, final attempt by it pushing her to ask forgiveness and self-reflect by angrily blasting a vision of her brother while letting out a Big "NO!", refusing to accept that she has done anything wrong or that any of her flaws even exist. The spirit plainly calls her out:
- "My manifestations did not lie. This is a sacred place of peace and rest, should you wish for those things. This temple is a crossroads for those who have followed the wrong path. It offers a second chance—to choose for the better. You, little Fire Lord, were offered redemption and forgiveness, but you rejected what we had to give you. I take many forms, and it is your cruelty and desire for vengeance that shaped me into a reflection of your own inner self. A Monster."
Azula ends the comic deriding her followers who abandoned her as "unworthy" of her and remarking that she'll just find new minions...which is played as her just covering her own ego and trying to convince herself that her own flaws didn't drive them away, but rather that they didn't deserve her.
The entire comic is a big ol' slap to Azula's face to call out what a selfish, self-defeating, broken person she is, and it basically reminds us of what the show already did: beneath her seemingly collected, charming, put-together exterior, Azula is a cruel, smug person incapable of self reflection. And by the end, she proves that she learned very little through the whole ordeal.
Again, not necessarily advocating for an immediate cut or anything, but I think the only leg Azula has to stand on right now is that she's almost certainly going to reappear at some point in the comics. When or how isn't known at this time, and while she could bounce back there? As of now, she's either on very, very, very thin ice, or has already broken through it and warrants a cut. Just figured this was worth a formal discussion, since this comic pretty much undoes all of Azula's "bouncing back" that she did in Smoke and Shadow, as it thoroughly deconstructs her and removes all the seeming steps forward she had taken earlier.
WHAT A WONDERFUL DAY!
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
I am going to abstain on Azula because I stop reading the Avatar comics after the last Korra one. Though I would now be more comfortable with cutting then I was before. Even if Azula is one of my favorite villains.
Edited by Bullman on Nov 28th 2023 at 12:43:42 PM
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Woagh
Fine with cutting Azula atm. If she does recover we can cover it later.
NOISE IS CALLING, PICK UP PHONE
A Girl, Just One of Many Kinds
Tbh given what is said here I can’t see anyway Azula can recover. I’m ok cutting her
Keep Fighting. Keep Loving.
If she gets cut remember to remove her entry on the resolved list on the Administrivia page
I'm fine with cutting Azula here without remorse. This comic seems specifically designed to put a final nail in the coffin for her magnificent side. Frankly, I don't ever see her getting put back up after that, and it's honestly a relief to finally put one of our most contentious candidates to bed.
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
Can’t believe I’m saying this, but ![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_down_emote.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
to Azula. Wow, to think one of the most well-known examples of this trope in Western Animation is getting cut.
Cut Azula. Lays all her issues bare and does not skirt around them.
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
I’ll take a potato chip… and EAT IT!
If I remember correctly Smoketrope had a defense for it, but I couldn’t find it and I may be misremembering things.
In honor of Akira Toriyama
Showtime!
Cut Azula
Absolute destiny... apeachalypse?
I'm Sad Frogerson.
@LarryT: Here's Snoketrope talking about the comic, for the curious.
Edited by chasemaddigan on Nov 28th 2023 at 3:58:08 PM
Those are two vastly different interpretations of those events, but I'm far more willing to take Ravok's side due to the greater detail in his post.
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
Not the Eye
Cut Azula
I’ll take a potato chip… and EAT IT!
I’m going to abstain on Azula because I haven’t read the comic.
In honor of Akira Toriyama
If Snoke would like to argue for keeping Azula that's fine. I'm still saying cut based on what Ravok's presented.
Ultimate Moral Compass
Cut Azula
"No running in the halls!"
Caesar
Yeah I can't say I agree with Snoke's take on the comic. Azula "resisting" the spirit is played as a negative thing. It's portrayed as an entity that helps bring "peace" and mental relief to those who can accept their own flaws and admit to their weaknesses. Azula can't, won't, and angrily, emotionally lashes out throughout the comic in really poor ways, and ends it just as much "smugly trying to cover up her shattered ego" as any possible "grace".
Again I'm not saying cut or keep either way myself atm. But IMO the comic makes it pretty clear that this entire ordeal was an embarrassing, petulant outing by Azula that restores her to what the show portrayed: an insecure, broken Smug Snake behaving more collected than she really is. Maybe that'll change later, but as of now? That's where she's at.
WHAT A WONDERFUL DAY!
The wifi here sucks
Barb / Temporary Kylo
With a second opinion I think I'll swap to a sad cut myself. I figured she could still keep, though I already thought it was rough, back then. But seeing it laid out here I think I'm convinced.
The First man
I'd like to trim the Agent Ali entry for Kim in Other Media (and then add it to YMMV.Agent Ali since no one got to that yet). I also reworded some things, fixed grammar and removed a few potholes so here's my rewrite:
Edited by BlackFaithStar on Nov 26th 2023 at 6:08:10 PM
No child should have to think of selling medication for food. Are you afraid?