Old Complete Monster cleanup thread
Welcome to the new Complete Monster (CM) cleanup thread! This thread is where we clean up or cut already-existing entries.
If you're looking to add new entries, please see the approval thread.
IMPORTANT: Before you begin any discussions on this thread, please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List. Here, you'll find explanations of the criteria for the trope as well as our rules/procedures for approving and cutting candidates.
What goes through this thread?
- Cut requests. If you believe a CM has been approved and they do not count, this thread is where you propose their removal. To know how to go about this, please see the FAQ folder on the Administrivia page, where the process is explained in detail.
- If we ever need to consider cutting multiple examples without individually reviewing them (e.g. if we discover widespread plagiarism with a particular troper's CMs), the initial discussion will be on this thread and we'll then escalate to the mod team (as described here) to get a formal consensus if we decide to recommend a mass cut.
- If an entry was put on the wrong subpage/YMMV page, you may propose where they should be moved to.
- Full rewrites of existing entries, including expansions, trims, and ground-up rewrites. If your rewrite is approved by the thread, feel free to add it to the drafts page so that other users can check grammar and the like before it is included with the rest of the weekly swaps.
- If an entry on a work's YMMV page doesn't match the entry on the media subpage, you can bring it here to discuss which entry works better.
What does not go through this thread?
- New candidate proposals - as stated before, those are done on this thread.
- Unapproved wicks - if a Troper encounters either of these kinds of wicks, they can be cut with no approval.
- Any CM link on a non-YMMV page - as a YMMV trope, it should not be linked on those pages regardless of any cleanup effort. The only exception is if the wick is being used within the definition of another trope.
- If an CM link on a YMMV page refers to an unapproved character. If it refers to an approved character on any such page, the wick can stay. On the other hand, if the unapproved character being linked to sounds like they might have promise (and you don't feel like checking it out for yourself), feel free to mention it on the approval thread - someone may already know why they don't count, or it could invite a brand new discussion!
- Proposals for images, quotes, and videos of already-approved CMs - quotes and images are proposed on the approval thread, while videos can be uploaded normally as they are screened for approval by the moderation.
- Crosswicking examples to YMMV pages - if an example has already been approved and added to the main page, you do not require any special permission to add the example to a work's YMMV page (assuming the work has a page already). If a YMMV page doesn't exist yet, then you can make it yourself, but either way, feel free to just add the example without asking.
- Small changes to existing entries - these can simply be done on a Troper's own prerogative with no approval.
- Spelling and grammar fixes.
- Pothole changes.
- Minor rewordings.
- Spoiler tags.
While these changes do not require any kind of approval, it is requested that should you make any of these changes, you do one of the following:
- Make the same changes on the relevant Sandbox page, then add the Sandbox to the list at the bottom of the drafts page. This will add the Sandbox to the weekly swaps and ensure that the edits end up on the relevant locked page. If the Sandbox is already listed, then once you make the edits, your job is already done!
- If you don't know how the Sandboxes work or simply don't have the time to find it, then you can simply post on the thread about the changes you made. Someone else can then make the edit on the relevant Sandbox and add it to the weekly swaps.
- Alternatively, you can simply request that the change be made directly to the locked page on the Locked Pages thread. Members of this thread keep track of that one, so we will ensure that the changes are made in the Sandbox so that it doesn't get deleted during the next swap.
Again, these changes don't require any approval, but we prefer to keep the entries on the YMMV pages and the locked pages the same in order to avoid any miscommunication or errors between entries, so if you do make the change, we would greatly appreciate it if you could ensure the change is made on the locked page as well.
As a final note, we do not care what other sites have to say regarding whether or not a character counts. We have our own criteria and they have theirs for their CM equivalents; while they are similar, they are not exactly the same and should not be treated as such. Another site removing a character from their equivalent should not be a reason why a cut is proposed here, and if this is the case, it will likely lead to mod intervention.
Other than this, once again, welcome to the cleanup thread, and we look forward to your contributions!
Edited by Mrph1 on Jan 14th 2024 at 11:30:03 AM
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
A total has-been.
About that Koba discussion a few pages back -
Firestorm was released in 2014 a month before Dawn of the Planet of the Apes even hit theaters, so I find it really hard to believe that it was not brought up in any earlier discussion on Koba somewhere or went under the radar for all these years, with Koba being on the trope for as long as he was.
My issue with the idea that the (quite frankly) over-excessive amount of Freudian Excuse the novel gives him being disqualifying to his status as a CM in the movie or the movie script(s), where there's not so much as a hint of any of that backstory that any viewer would be able to pick up on, is both what Lightysnake initially brought up about him still succumbing to hatred, pride, and power-lust after years of peace and a loving kinship with the other apes to the point of so easily turning on his beloved "brother" Caesar, but the fact that all of the Trauma Conga Line detailed in the novel is meant to justify why he ended up with such an intense hatred of humans, which still does nothing to rationalize why he would become so fine with caging and killing fellow apes, violating the "ape no kill ape" rule without a care, and using human resources and weapons against ape dissenters to his reign. This, to me, suggests that after Caesar beat him down when he challenged him, Koba reflected on everything, consciously decided that Caesar was not worth being his brother and that in fact most apes who'd followed Ceasar's ways were lesser beings no better than humans, and pre-meditated all of his moves to kill Caesar, turn as many apes to his side against the humans as he could by framing them for Caesar's murder, and corrupting Caesar's son while he was at it. The idea might very well have supposed to be "oh, he's just so damaged by years of horrific abuse by humans and could never be psychologically free of all that", but it's a huge leap from what his Freudian Excuse can make sense of in the movie on its own, and even with the tie-in novel entered into the equation, I'm not sure his callous readiness to do harm to his fellow apes and be even worse than any of the humans there in the movie's present time can be rationalized as anything other than Koba wanting to be more evil out of the belief that it'd get him the most beneficial result for him personally. Caesar says "Koba fights for Koba" and "You are NOT ape" at the end for this very reason.
Koba is still more than likely a solid cut for reasons of "was not meant to come off as horribly monstrous and unsympathetic as he did" a la Xehanort. But I still felt like giving my thoughts on this whole absurd matter.
Unrelated, but in addition to the anime version of Dr. Regal's entry on the Mega Man/ Monster page lacking Season 3/Stream at the start, I also found that the manga version of Xehanort/Ansem, Seeker of Darkness on the Disney/ Monster page only says Kingdom Hearts as the preface even though he appeared in the Chain of Memories manga as well, much like how Xemnas is prefaced with 358/2 Days AND Kingdom Hearts II. Could this be fixed?
Edited by ANewMan on Sep 8th 2023 at 2:27:17 PM
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
I don't know how the Mega Man one should look, but for Kingdom Hearts, this work?
- Kingdom Hearts & Chain of Memories: [writeup]
Also, any quote ideas for Wonder Woman or Walking Dead? After that, we can probably officially launch the pages (we can do image pickin' whenever).
EDIT: So for Regal:
- Season 2/Axess; Season 3/Stream; & The Program of Light and Darkness film: Writeup
?
Edited by ACW on Sep 8th 2023 at 3:52:40 PM
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Lies and Violence!
So, have some edits for Ninjago. I brought up the Omega earlier this week, and while I'm satisfied that he's bad enough, I wanted to add a bit to his entry to emphasize the apocalyptic vibe of his plan.
- Original: The Omega is the leader of a race of beings who live for destruction known as the Oni. The Omega desires to reverse Creation itself and has plans to transform the Sixteen Realms into lifeless wastes. Releasing his demonic soldiers upon Ninjago City, the Omega petrifies the citizens into statues, intending to expand his shadows across the entire world to force this fate on every living thing. Facing off against Lord Garmadon, the Omega mocks his insecurities about his struggles with good and evil, dismissing him for not embracing destruction as a "true" Oni.
- New: The Omega is the nightmarish leader of the Oni, a race of beings who live only for Destruction. The Omega desires to reverse Creation itself and has plans to raze the Sixteen Realms down to lifeless wastes. Having already invaded the First Realm, the Omega releases his demonic soldiers upon Ninjago City to petrify the citizens into statues, intending to expand his shadows across the entire world in order to inflict this agonizing corruption on every living thing. Facing off against Lord Garmadon, the Omega mocks his insecurities about his struggles between good and evil, dismissing him for not embracing the impending destruction of everything like a "true" Oni and declaring he will perish with the people of the realm he has chosen to protect.
Next, the Overlord. I have two different versions for him: the first is just smoothing out the flow—adding a bit more detail, combined a few sentences so the summary of what he does isn't so chopped up, clarified how he gets over the Made of Evil situation. But the second... while one entry works perfectly well for him, he still does a lot. Combined with the strong Arc Villain structure of the show and the fact that he only appears sporadically, I wanted to see what it would look like if we split him up by his major schemes.
- Original: The Overlord, also known as the Golden Master and the Crystal King, is the Big Bad of the series and the greatest primordial evil to haunt Ninjago, who endlessly warred with the First Spinjitzu Master before being banished. Desiring revenge, the Overlord infected a snake with his evil and had it bite the young son of his nemesis, making him responsible for all the death and destruction caused by the Great Devourer and Lord Garmadon. Resurfacing in the present, the Overlord manipulates Garmadon into bombarding the world with Dark Matter missiles to tip the balance between good and evil, before possessing him to personally convert all of Ninjago into his corrupted slaves. Returning as a Computer Virus, the Digital Overlord creates the Nindroid army to steal Lloyd's Golden Power and subjugate all life under his apocalyptic might. Reemerging once again to turn Harumi into his latest puppet, the Overlord mines Vengestone to create warriors from the material and begin his conquest anew, setting out to corrupt the power of Creation itself and crystallize the people of Ninjago into his zombified slaves. Endlessly desiring to upset the balance and overrun the realm with his nightmarish rule, the Overlord will always return to complete his vicious purpose, using and exploiting whoever he can in order to reduce existence to black nothing.
- Version 1: The Overlord, also known as the Golden Master and the Crystal King, is the Big Bad of the series and the greatest primordial evil to haunt Ninjago, awoken with the realm's very creation to relentlessly war upon the First Spinjitzu Master before being banished. Desiring revenge, the Overlord possessed a small snake and had it bite the young son of his nemesis; both were corrupted by his evil, making him responsible for years of misery and death from the omnicidal hunger of the Great Devourer and Lord Garmadon's undying thirst for conquest. Resurfacing in the present, the Dark Lord possesses Garmadon in order to corrupt everyone in Ninjago into his dark servants, then steals Lloyd's Golden Power upon being converted into the Digital Overlord so he can subjugate all life under his apocalyptic might. Reemerging years later to turn Harumi into his latest follower, the Overlord assembles the Crystal Council and constructs a Vengestone army to begin his conquest anew, setting out to corrupt the powers of Creation itself and crystallize the people of Ninjago into his zombified slaves. Endlessly desiring to upset the Balance and overrun the realm with his nightmarish rule even when the Golden Power of Light floods his veins, the Overlord will always return to complete his vicious purpose, using and exploiting whoever he can in order to reduce existence to black nothing.
- Version 2: The Overlord, also known as the Dark Lord, the Golden Master, and the Crystal King, is the Big Bad of the series and the greatest primordial evil to haunt Ninjago, awoken with the realm's very creation to relentlessly war upon his benevolent opposite—the First Spinjitzu Master and his Golden Power. Desiring revenge after his banishment, the Overlord possessed a small snake and had it bite the young son of his nemesis; both became corrupted by his Darkness and grew to immense power, making the Overlord responsible for years of misery and death from the omnicidal hunger of the Great Devourer and Lord Garmadon's undying thirst for conquest. The Overlord's evil proliferates from there, whether it be providing the Hands of Time with an army in their destructive quest to alter history, funding the Skull Sorcerer's secret industry of slavery, or engendering Harumi's fall to villainy that sees Ninjago City almost leveled as he watches with interest. Though defeated time and time again, the Overlord endlessly desires to return so he may upset the Balance and overrun the realm with his nightmarish rule, using and exploiting whoever he can in order to fulfill his vicious purpose of reducing existence to black nothing.
- Season 1 (Rise of the Snakes) & Season 2 (Legacy of the Green Ninja): Many centuries after his exile, the Overlord's machinations lead to the Great Devourer killing countless innocents and nearly razing Ninjago, all while the Dark Lord reaps the rewards of the carnage wrought through the serpent by manipulating Lord Garmadon into commanding his Stone Army. Under his guidance, Garmadon is able to bombard the world with Dark Matter missiles, stealing away the minds and spirits of everyone in Ninjago to corrupt them into the Overlord's wicked servants. The Dark Lord proceeds to painfully possess Garmadon as the Balance between good and evil is tipped in his favor, reveling in the creation of the perfect host through which he can kill the Green Ninja—Garmadon's own son, Lloyd—and blanket the realm in shadow.
- Season 3 (Rebooted): The Overlord, surviving his fall at the hands of Lloyd and the Golden Power, is left trapped in the form of a Computer Virus that takes over Borg Industries and Ninjago City. Making his grand return by attempting to incinerate a group of schoolchildren; converting Cyrus Borg into a robotic puppet; and releasing his Nindroids to wreak havoc in pursuit of his foes, the Digital Overlord plans to steal the Golden Power so he can become the Golden Master—an all-mighty conqueror prophesied to "usher in the last of the setting suns" and enslave every man, woman, and Serpentine to his apocalyptic will. The Overlord goes on to try to drown Garmadon in front of Lloyd; employs Pythor to maintain his power supply, heedless to those endangered in the process; leaves remnants of his virus within Zane to Mind Rape him in the ambiguously canon Decoded web series; and spitefully attacks swathes of civilians when he's unable to harm the Ninja, proving himself to be a vile monster even with the embodiment of good itself absorbed into his essence.
- Season 15 (Crystalized): The Overlord reemerges only a few years after his most recent defeat, resurrecting Harumi as his latest follower and tasking her with constructing a Vengestone army to begin his conquest anew. Taking the guise of the Crystal King, the Overlord has Harumi assemble the Ninjas' greatest enemies to summon his physical form before setting out to crystallize the people of Ninjago into his zombified slaves. Intent on eventually corrupting the powers of Creation itself, the Overlord proves himself a horrendous Bad Boss when he nearly kills the Crystal Council for their failure to capture the Ninja, then sends them to crush the survivors of his assault on the realm. The Crystal King proceeds to face off against Lloyd and Garmadon in a final clash for the fate of existence, gleefully revealing himself as the creator of the Great Devourer, the true murderer of Harumi's parents, and the architect of all their misfortunes as he prepares to annihilate everything.
Probably unnecessary, but I thought it bore suggesting at the very least. Which do you all prefer?
The Brazillian Dog!
There's a little issue with Soraya Montenegro from Maria la del Barrio:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PEPim51hCr8
She is clearly horrified in killing his mother here ![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
.
Also, before trying to burn Maria to death, she express some remorse for killing, which could be seen in 2:50 here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=esfNWmYlSEA. In another part, she also express remorse for killing his mother, while blamming Maria for that.
Cut her then
Cut her
On Mythology & Religion, for the Demiurge's entry shouldn't Demiurge Archetype be somewhere in the entry, since he is the Demiurge who the trope was named after? REALITY IS AN ILLUSION, THE UNIVERSE IS A HOLOGRAM, BUY GOLD BYEEEE! | She/Her
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Cut if that's accurate.
I don't know. We don't use Satanic Archetype for any actual Satans.
I mean the trope is for supreme beings who pretend to be THE God when they're actually not and that's what he is
REALITY IS AN ILLUSION, THE UNIVERSE IS A HOLOGRAM, BUY GOLD BYEEEE! | She/Her
Not the Eye
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to Omega rewrite and I am okay with either version for Overlord
Cut Soraya
Demiurge Archetype is the villainous version of that, I don't see a reason to not have the archetype the Demiurge made not be potholed in his write up
REALITY IS AN ILLUSION, THE UNIVERSE IS A HOLOGRAM, BUY GOLD BYEEEE! | She/Her
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
I guess? I dunno. Seems odd for someone to be their own archetype.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Cut Soraya and ACW has the right idea on the pothole. No to the Demiurge pothole.
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.Why not? Trope Codifiers get the tropes they codified in their entry and I don't see why this would be different
REALITY IS AN ILLUSION, THE UNIVERSE IS A HOLOGRAM, BUY GOLD BYEEEE! | She/Her
To reply to Snoketrope's last post, the Yomi we encountered during the story was a clone, but he was one who had the memories and personality of the original. The issue is how the actions of the original Yomi don't count since he's technically a separate being. So, if I had to re-propose him, I'd have to leave out the actions of the original, right?
I have no idea who Yomi is but TBH I don't really understand how being a clone gets a character cut. Is the issue that he's two separate people and they only qualify if treated as a single individual?
The issue was that they didn't mention he was a clone in the proposal and listed both their actions in the write up
REALITY IS AN ILLUSION, THE UNIVERSE IS A HOLOGRAM, BUY GOLD BYEEEE! | She/Her
....Phenomenal
Yeah, from what I gather, it's not that getting clones involved means automatic cut, it's just there's some confusion over which actions were done by the original, which by the clone, exactly how much the distinction matters, and so on.
There remains a foothold out of this mire — now climb.
Harbinger of Cringe
Alrighty I have a problem with these two writeups.
- Starved is Doctor Ivo "Eggman" Robotnik after having consumed a cooked piggy. After becoming obsessed with the taste, he started building robots to hunt down the animals to cook and eat them, hunting down every animal on Little Planet, destroying any robots that don't meet his expectations, and even having his second Furnace kill Tails and Amy.
- The second Furnace that Starved built kills Tails and Amy the minute he is activated. After that, he attempts to catch Sonic to please Starved, but after getting a vision of Starved killing him for failing, he proceeds to just kill Starved, take over his robot army, and then bring Little Planet out of orbit to suffocate all its inhabitants, all in an effort to increase his own power.
Second off, having watched these videos. I am honestly not sure Furnace counts anymore. Yes, he did attempt to pull Little Planet out of orbit. The problem is at the point where he does it, most of its life had already been wiped out and cooked. The place was practically a wasteland with only a few characters. Sure Furnace helped with that, but he was pretty much just Robotnik's minion, doing what he asks without much flare of his own, and when he becomes independent, he really doesn't do anything noteworthy as I've stated aside from attempting to kill the heroes. So I'm honestly leaning for him to be cut.
So considering I've watched these videos. I am gonna try rewrite Robotnik's writeup to have a bit more flavor. As for Furnace, as I've said. I feel he might need to be cut, or at least have a relook.
My mere presence makes everyone's day worse.Where are these guys from?
REALITY IS AN ILLUSION, THE UNIVERSE IS A HOLOGRAM, BUY GOLD BYEEEE! | She/Her
Harbinger of Cringe
The Starved series made by Sensation Studios. here's a link to the playlist.
Found the page Prey (Sensation Studios)
Unsure on Furnace
REALITY IS AN ILLUSION, THE UNIVERSE IS A HOLOGRAM, BUY GOLD BYEEEE! | She/Her
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Oh, and seconding what agent and Gray said: It's not the clone part that's disqualifying, it's who did what.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
I was going over the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles (Mirage) section and noticed an error in this entry:
In the actual story, the student is not actually killed but merely wounded and is confirmed to survive by the story's end. I'd like to suggest a rewrite correcting this inaccuracy (as well as tweaking some of the wording):