Needs Help: Standard Snippet

First off, the subpages within it. Some of those were given a work page treatment and were namespaced Music/ rather than Main/. However, even those pages seem to treat them as trope pages to list their appearances, without a single trope to describe them. These are:

• Also sprach Zarathustra (At least 99% of the work appearances listed refer to a single movement (specifically the one and a half minute introduction) of the tone poem)
• The Cancan Song (not even the official name of the work in question, and the description seems to describe the usage more as a trope than as part of an operetta (so if we're to have a page on it as a work, it should be under Theatre/})
• Carmina Burana (unlike the above two, the page is about the entire cantata rather than a movement within one, so it can be made into a work. However, the current use as it is makes it a trope that documents the use of "O Fortuna", which should be spun off as a trope of its own).
• Eine Kleine Nachtmusik (one paragraph, not too many examples... is there much to trope here?)
• Ode to Joy (a single movement within Beethoven's Ninth. Indeed in itself a trope, which makes the fact that it's namespaced an issue).
• Pachelbel's Canon (Why is this indexed and "Pachelbel's Canon" Progression isn't?)
• Ride of the Valkyries (Should be converted into a trope (something like Valkyrie Music), and the problem with having it as a work is that there already is a page on The Ring of the Nibelung, which "Ride of the Valkyries" is a part of)
• Romeo And Juliet (a few brief sentences, very few of the listed appearances give context, seldom ever sees edits and didn't have one in a year. Cut?)
• Toccata and Fugue in D minor (has some usage, but will that be enough to keep it as a trope? What is there to trope to keep it as a work?)

The trouble with having these as work pages is that work pages should be troped, and if they are to be separate from a composer's page (which given that they're in Music/ should also have tropes) they should be unique rather than describe the entirety of the composer's known output. Now for the Main/ subpages:

• Amazing Freaking Grace (uses of the hymn; If someone could create a work page that would be Music.Amazing Grace with a ReferencedBy/ subpage)
• Amen break (a music trope of a certain percussive progression, that doesn't lend itself much room for context)
• "Bringer of War" Music (from "Mars, Bringer of War")
• Chaos of the Bells (the use of "Carol of the Bells", with context attached)
• Colonel Bogey March (the piece's proper name which isn't under Music/, pretty much lists appearances)
• Deathly Dies Irae (the Gregorian chant lending itself to various pieces in fiction to let out a foreboding aura)
• Jeopardy! Thinking Music (yes, that one, or pieces with a similar motif for that kind of context)
• Lohengrin and Mendelssohn (two different composers with pieces associated with weddings)
• Minsky Pickup (introductory progression traced back to the days of vaudeville)
• Shave And A Haircut (a simple progression for a bit of comedic whimsy)
• Taps (a name of a piece, but a simple one that doesn't leave much room to be troped; is however commonly found in fiction for specific contexts)
• Westminster Chimes (a name of a melody rather than a piece, so fitting it's in Main/ for the clock tower use)

I'm fine with all the above remaining in Main/ since they're used as tropes and written as such. That the Music/ namespace is prescribed for some of the subpages is a problem that must be sorted out, even if it's replacing the examples with tropes and placing their appearances in the ReferencedBy/ namespace.

Originally I'm not going to bring up the page itself, but looking at the examples, there really isn't any, just listing off the music pieces used commonly in fiction and where they tend to be found. I do believe that some degree of restructuring is necessary.

Edited by GrafVonTirol on Mar 25th 2022 at 10:37:57 AM

Opened. Yeah, the divide between work page/trope page is pretty inconsistent here, and listing works as tropes is never acceptable.

I don't think a wick check is necessary here since the issue is with the organization of the main trope page (particularly the list of subtropes), since some of them are classified a work pages and not trope pages, and referring to work pages as subtropes isn't something I've seen done anywhere else.

I don't have any ideas for what to do at the moment, so I'll wait and see what everyone else has to say.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Mar 25th 2022 at 12:52:23 PM

The first group are Music/ and not tropes... because they're not tropes, they are single compositions with known date and author. At the very least they should be moved from Standard Snippet's "subtropes" to the example section.

I'd question why are even troping works that are music-only with no lyrics. I'd move the "music used in X" examples to Referenced by..., like ReferencedBy.William Blake. Some of these do have some sort of story, which needs to be decided case-by-case if they can live standalone of should be merged with respective composer's Creator/ page.

The second group describes actual tropes since they can be associated with musical cues or personality traits... but their descriptions don't say so and describe them as they are actual songs. Standard Snippet already describes what they could be used for, so I don't think they can live standalone. For example, "Call To The Dairy Cows" can live at Standard Snippet's table and the examples of "generic morning music" can be listed at ReferencedBy.Gioachino Rossini.

Also, let's ditch the table format and replace to with a standard example list, having just two columns is more inconvenient than useful.

To summarize, options for Ride of the Valkyries for example:

• Move to StandardSnippet.Ride Of The Valkyries (e)
• Remake into Shoutout Of The Valkeyries
• Move to ReferencedBy.Richard Wagner

Edited by Amonimus on Mar 25th 2022 at 9:37:17 PM

We can probably do that, except we'd go with StandardSnippet.Ride Of The Valkyries if we're making it a subpage of Standard Snippet for Ride of the Valkyries.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Mar 25th 2022 at 1:34:10 PM

Opps.

Some of these are genuine subtropes, ie. Standard Snippet with a specific meaning. There's a difference between "Amazing Grace" being played as someone's ringtone (which would be Standard Snippet alone) and in the specific recurring context of religion/funerals.

So as Amazing Freaking Grace is "stock funeral music", Lohengrin and Mendelssohn is "stock wedding music", etc. In that vein, I think of the ones in Music/ The Cancan Song ("stock shenanigans music") and Ride of the Valkyries ("stock awesome music") could be moved to Main/ with some elbow grease.

Edited by Synchronicity on Mar 25th 2022 at 2:16:06 PM

The meanings you mentioned for the ones in the Music/ namespace makes me wonder if they were in Main/ at one point.

According to the depths of the history, Cancan Song was once a redirect to Infernal Galop, a page that as far as I can tell never existed in the first place.

That might have been its original name, and it was probably renamed to match what it's usually called offsite so long ago that the Cut List records for the original name have been lost (I'm pretty sure records for page cuts have a cutoff date similarly to how pages' creation dates have a cutoff date that only goes back to 2007, even for pages made before then, like Gilligan Cut).

Edit: RenamedTropes.A To E doesn't have a listing for it, so I couldn't say for sure.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Mar 25th 2022 at 2:49:22 PM

The curious thing about The Ride of the Valkyries is that it is listed as one of the tropes for The Ring of the Nibelung, even as non-tropes shouldn't. The former would only be redundant (not helping that it's only one movement within one of the four parts (Die Walkure)) and ideally it would be worthwhile to have that bit of elbow grease to convert it into a trope for "stock awesome music". Still kinda partial to Valkyrie Music or something along that purview.

Any action to take on Eine Kleine Nachtmusik and Romeo And Juliet? The latter is more consistent as "stock romance", but is woefully thin, while the former is only a little better and doesn't seem to have as consistent an identity.

Edited by GrafVonTirol on Mar 27th 2022 at 10:44:04 AM

Any ideas for what to do here?

Hmm. At least the Music/ pages should 1) be moved out of Standard Snippet and 2) have their "appearances in media" removed and maybe put on referenced by pages, and if enough pages using them as tropes show a narrative pattern, a trope can be launched/yarded.

I do agree with Amonimus that the tables should be scrapped, and an examples section being made in lieu of this. It's unusual that a trope page really isn't listing work examples here, and instead giving general descriptions of a piece's use.

As for the subpages... At least a couple of those can be salvaged as actual work pages (Also sprach Zarathustra and Carmina Burana, with spinoff TRS drafts for contextual use of their respective introductory movements). I'm still wondering what to do with Eine Kleine Nachtmusik and Romeo And Juliet given how underdeveloped they are, both as a "trope" and (especially and egregiously) as a work page.

Edited by GrafVonTirol on Mar 30th 2022 at 4:21:48 AM

Policy says cut them since they are stub pages with no tropes. Classical music is really hard to trope.

In any case, now that I've taken a look at Music.Pachelbels Canon and "Pachelbel's Canon" Progression, there appears to be an overlap of examples. Perhaps merge into the latter?

I didn't know about the latter, but I can run a crowner regarding the latter after this one is done.

Changing the namespaces from Music/ to StandardSnippet/ is the only one with enough votes, and it's within consensus range at 12 yeas and 2 nays. Tomorrow's the soonest it'll be able to be called.

Do they need anything changed, like the description, or it'd be fine to only direct the wicks to the new namespace?

Edited by Amonimus on Apr 2nd 2022 at 5:02:18 PM

I think they can be migrated without changes, perhaps just add a link back to Standard Snippet.

Does that include the AwesomeMusic/ space or just Music/?

Edited by Hello83433 on Apr 3rd 2022 at 10:39:39 AM

I did the same thing I've did for Dueling Works and converted the tables into lists and left them at Sandbox.Standard Snippet, this can be swapped into Standard Snippet's main if it looks alright.

Another problem there that wasn't brought up is that it's a massive Zero-Context Example and Weblinks Are Not Examples sink and probably requires cleaning and re-sorting.

Starting up a sandbox on Carmina Burana to ease a soft split between the snippets and StandardSnippet.O Fortuna. There are crosswicks I know I can use for the work page.

Cutlisted the two pages I brought up earlier for effectively being stubs in a work namespace.

Edited by GrafVonTirol on Apr 3rd 2022 at 2:32:17 AM

I cut them.

I'm going to leave the wicks alone in case someone comes along and makes properly made work pages for them, since Red Links are allowed and encouraged for work pages and creator pages, but I won't object if others in this thread think they should be dewicked instead.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Apr 3rd 2022 at 6:04:27 AM