To-do list:
- Move the current Audience Reaction definition of Uncanny Valley to Unintentional Uncanny Valley (description is being drafted on the Sandbox.Unintentional Uncanny Valley sandbox) and reuse the name Uncanny Valley for an In-Universe Examples Only trope (description is being drafted on the Sandbox.Uncanny Valley sandbox).
- Move out-of-universe examples to Unintentional Uncanny Valley and keep in-universe examples under Uncanny Valley. Cleanup is being tracked using the Uncanny Valley Wick Cleanup sandbox.
The wick check is at Uncanny Wick Check, and the results are:
- Correct: 20/86, or ~23%
- Creepy/Unnatural in general: 27/86, or ~31%
- Other: 9/86, or 10%
- ZCE: 37/86, or 43%
- In-Universe / Invoked: 13/86, or 15%
Some things to go over. The bottom number was a separate count I was doing, and it takes examples from all the other folders as long as they're tagged as being intentional in some way, so those aren't a whole separate category, but rather a subcategory. The ZCE bin also had a lot of "partial context" ones, where something was described as being human-like but not creepy, or just sort of vaguely "it looks weird" with no extra context as to why. I was surprised at how many non-YMMV uses there were for an Audience Reaction, and tried not to discriminate based on namespace as a result.
So, as we can see, there's an issue here. Even just ignoring the ZCE problem, the middle two folders combine to make 41% misuse- 84% if the ZCE pile is included.
What do? Well, a cleanup thread could help us crack down on these misused examples. It was suggested at the meta thread that we could split off other tropes to cover the misuse, if they don't fit pre-existing tropes. We could make something to catch in-universe usage if necessary, too. Of course, we can't rename or redefine this because of the pre-existing term issue, but maybe we could create a broader supertrope for the concept of "so unnatural it's disturbing"?
Edited by GastonRabbit on Nov 11th 2022 at 3:41:52 AM
Logic Girl
The misuse of "thing is creepy" seems to be already covered by Nightmare Fuel.
For every low there is a high.
Bonnie's Artistic Cousin
So we're only keeping the correct use, then. That seems doable. Lot of things will get cut... but that's necessary.
Current Project: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
the Retromancer
I suppose there can still be a room for Nightmare Fuel subtrope for "I find this imagery unsettling" due to high wick count, similarly to how Squick is frequently used as "I find this moment disturbing".
I think for now we could focus on Sandbox.Uncanny Valley IUEO and sort wicks. Sandbox.Uncanny Valley YMMV seems to be a lower priority for now (and basically cover all the leftover examples) and we (or TLP) can think about it's description and name for that during wick cleaning.
Edited by Amonimus on Mar 20th 2022 at 2:15:43 PM
TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup
Amateur Veteran
For the IUEO, the obvious first step to me would be to move over and clean applicable examples. After that, we can start looking for common traits or running themes and use those as the basis for a description.
Bonnie's Artistic Cousin
What about the Alan Resnick video (which I uploaded)? It's a discussed example.
Current Project: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
the Retromancer
Since he has Live Forever As You Are Now with Alan Resnick page I'd think that would go there as In-Universe one since he makes everything related to it himself to make the point (I think).
TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup
Bonnie's Artistic Cousin
That probably works, and will save me the trouble of needing to move it.
Current Project: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
Lord Something, Forgetter of Cool Titles
For the YMMV, what about for when the audience finds characters that weren't supposed to be disturbing unsettling due to their human-but-not-quite design or animation, like many people felt with Cats?
Edited by good-morning on Mar 20th 2022 at 8:46:08 AM
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the Retromancer
Copying that example... sounds about what would be suited for the split part.
- Uncanny Valley: Easily the biggest complaint.
- Cat fur, ears and tails placed on human bodies might work onstage and only slightly less in the 1998 filmed version of the stage show. In a proper film, though? Shudder-inducing, for many. While the stage show enhances the costumes with face paint, the cats in the film just look like human faces grafted onto anthropomorphic cat bodies. And then their tails start moving. As Dan Olson of Folding Ideas put it in his impressions video on the film...
Dan Olson: Cats is a film seated so firmly at the bottom of the Uncanny Valley that it has set up residences, sown and harvested wheat, raised children, and developed its own system of divine mathematics.
- The fact that some cats appear clothed while others aren't (or in some cases remove their fur to show clothes underneath) is one of the contributing factors to the perceived uncomfortable unintentional eroticism. In Idris Elba's case, the fur is so short and colored so similarly to his natural skin tone that he straight-up looks naked.
- The human-faced mice and cockroaches are only slightly worse. They've been compared to bad Snapchat filters.
- Cat fur, ears and tails placed on human bodies might work onstage and only slightly less in the 1998 filmed version of the stage show. In a proper film, though? Shudder-inducing, for many. While the stage show enhances the costumes with face paint, the cats in the film just look like human faces grafted onto anthropomorphic cat bodies. And then their tails start moving. As Dan Olson of Folding Ideas put it in his impressions video on the film...
Maybe the YMMV trope could be something like Unintentionally Creepy Design?
the Retromancer
I was considering just Unintentionally Creepy for a while, maybe with Design can work as well. This is why I think sorting should be done first to see if the examples are mostly about the creepy designs or there is some Fridge Horror / Special Effect Failure mixed in them.
TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup
Amateur Veteran
Carried over examples down to Tabletop Games, which had a lot. It's real easy to tell when an example is in-universe when there's an explicit rule saying "you have a hard time making people like you".
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
I hooked a crowner for the names that were suggested so far, plus a few I came up with myself. Feel free to add more.
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
Oh, right, I forgot to address the previous discussion regarding the definition.
Yes, we're only keeping the correct usage (because, as mentioned, misuse is covered by Nightmare Fuel), and yes, that does mean a lot will have to get cut, except we're moving the correct subjective usage to a new Audience Reaction, while the in-universe examples are staying under the name Uncanny Valley.
The split is akin to how Dead Artists Are Better covers in-universe examples of characters thinking, well, that dead artists are better, while Posthumous Popularity Potential covers real life cases of dead artists seeing a boost in popularity after their death (such as how sales and streaming of David Bowie's music increased after his death).
Edited by GastonRabbit on Mar 21st 2022 at 2:25:25 PM
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
Bonnie's Artistic Cousin
That's fair. My only real reason for pushing the def-only one so hard was that I thought a YMMV / IUEO split would either unnecessarily broaden things or not do enough to solve the misuse issue. But this seems like it'll work out fine.
Current Project: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
Lord Something, Forgetter of Cool Titles
While we are choosing a name for the YMMV uncanny valley, what do you think of the IUEO trope also having an index on the description with tropes related to the use of uncanny valley to provoke horror, much like Body Horror is both a trope and an index? I'm thinking about tropes like Creepy Doll, Marionette Motion etc..
Edited by good-morning on Mar 21st 2022 at 11:08:34 AM
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Sounds good on paper (he/him)
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
That doesn't sound like a bad idea.
the Retromancer
Similar to Hate Sink, a shop list of "subtropes that can be used to build the trope"?
TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup
Lord Something, Forgetter of Cool Titles
Exactly, Uncanny Valley would be both a trope and an index of sub-tropes in this way. The current page even already has a paragraph with several tropes related to when the Uncanny Valley is intentionally used to cause horror, like Uncanny Valley Makeup, Creepy Long Arms, Undead Barefooter, Undeathly Pallor etc..
Edited by good-morning on Mar 21st 2022 at 11:20:06 AM
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Bonnie's Artistic Cousin
Eh, I'd be careful about calling them subtropes unless they fit the actual definition of Uncanny Valley. Not all of the mentioned tropes do. I wouldn't mind listing similar or overlapping tropes, but we need to stop equating Uncanny Valley with "terrifyingly weird".
Current Project: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
the Retromancer
Bonnie's Artistic Cousin
No, they are. We spent weeks separating tropes into two separate indices, one for Hate Sink subtropes and one for hateworthy actions and the like. Everything on there should be a legit subtrope. Relevant TRS thread
.
Edited by WarJay77 on Mar 21st 2022 at 1:33:25 PM
Current Project: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
Lord Something, Forgetter of Cool Titles
Yes, perhaps the description might've helped a bit with the misuse igualating the trope to Nightmare Fuel.
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
On second thought, maybe we could put those tropes in a "compare/contrast" section instead of an index.
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
Crown Description:
Currently, Uncanny Valley is In Universe Examples Only due to out-of-universe examples being moved to Unintentional Uncanny Valley. Should Uncanny Valley examples that are Intended Audience Reactions be included alongside In Universe examples? At least one trope, Annoying Laugh, already allows both in-universe examples and Intended Audience Reactions.
Yeah, I still sort of want to know how the YMMV one is being defined first.
Current Project: Incorruptible Pure Pureness