Memetic Mutation and Indentation

It occurred to me just now as I was looking at Star Wars memes that the indentation rules for Memetic Mutation are... incompatible with proper indentation rules. Specifically, the top of the page says:

Please add entries in the following format:

• The meme. ^Explanation The explanation behind the meme.
  • Further mutations and successor memes, if any.

The issue is, while this is absolutely not in line with indentation rules and stands out horribly on YMMV pages, I also have no idea how else these things would be indented. I figured it was weird enough to warrant a thread, so we can figure out if it's meant to be like this or not.

It doesn't seem like it's that problematic to me. It sticks out, but it's probably fine for most pages of this sort as they've always had different formatting anyway.

Well, yeah, when they're subpages, sure. But most Memetic Mutation examples are just on YMMV pages, where the formatting clashes.

Either

• it's okay to subbullet if they are variations of a meme (currently).
• all memes must be on the primary level and "spin-offs" have to specify they are further mutations.
• the formatting needs a new standard that meme variations have to be group-labeleded and all go as separate subbullets.

Edited by Amonimus on Apr 8th 2022 at 9:06:45 PM

I think as long as it doesn't go to a third bullet, that indentation is fine. As long as each entry refers to a single meme or spinoff meme, and it's not a self-demonstrating call-and-response meme as older pages might do.

Since I overlooked the part of the moderation discussion thread that brought this thread up (in relation to a suspension for indentation on meme subpages), I'll copy what I posted there (I posted it there because I didn't now about this thread).

I admit that I never really thought of Memes/ subpages as trope subpages (well, Audience Reaction subpages, since they're tied to Memetic Mutation and Audience Reactions aren't tropes), possibly because the namespace isn't named after Memetic Mutation, and because we already have subpage types like Haiku/ and Quotes/ that aren't tied to Main/ pages.

I'm not making a policy statement by saying this; I'm just giving my thoughts on the matter.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Apr 8th 2022 at 2:23:39 PM

Then there are the examples on YMMV pages, which I've always seen follow the same format. I even did it myself the other day, despite how wrong it felt, it was apparently the "correct" way to do it.

OK, so it looks like the specific case that led to this discussion was on a YMMV subpage, which is probably why it was considered problematic. I was specifically referring to examples on Memes/ subpages in my previous post, and wasn't aware that the example in question was on a YMMV subpage.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Apr 8th 2022 at 2:28:58 PM

We may also treat them like Moments pages and separate by default. That way they can keep their house rules and without "* Memetic Mutation: " it would avoid third bullet level.

See, I'm not sure how to feel about this because I don't know why there'd be rules that only apply once the examples are on a subpage, but not when they're on an ordinary YMMV page. To me, the rules seem to apply to all meme examples, regardless of where they're placed, because otherwise it's weirdly inconsistent.

And if that's not the case, how are YMMV page memes supposed to be formatted?

I looked into this suspension a bit more and they've only received one indentation notifier, and it was for a Nightmare Fuel subpage, and the edit in question wasn't even from this year.

So I'm not entirely sure why that example isn't the one being focused on in the Edit Banned thread, since they didn't receive a notifier for the Memetic Mutation example.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Apr 8th 2022 at 2:32:54 PM

(Not-super-closely paying attention. What's this about a suspension...?)

No objections to

On YMMV pages

• Memetic Mutation:
  • Meme
    • Spin-off meme
    • Spin-off meme
  • Meme
    • Spin-off meme
  • Meme
  • Meme...

On Meme/ subpages

• Meme
  • Spin-off meme
  • Spin-off meme
• Meme
  • Spin-off meme
• Meme
• Meme...

though the format does run into the "this is not how you're supposed to indent things" issue. Maybe only allow spin-off memes if there's more than one. If there's only one, it goes in the primary bullet. That's roughly analogous to indentation for trope examples.

• Memetic Mutation:
  • Meme
    • Spin-off meme
    • Spin-off meme
  • Meme. Spin-off meme
  • Meme
  • Meme...

On Meme/ subpages

• Meme
  • Spin-off meme
  • Spin-off meme
• Meme. Spin-off meme
• Meme
• Meme...

Edited by Tabs on Apr 8th 2022 at 12:49:44 PM

Have been thinking how some Awesome Moments, Tear Jerker, Shout-Out and Ho Yay pages jump into more free-form style the moment they're split and how that may not actually be allowed.

This is a similar issue as with What An Idiot, it attracted very lax examples and had house rules not everyone kept consistent. So either memes should be automatically off YMMV pages as their own subwiki (or on conditions where a split warranted), or they all need to be typed out without labelnotes.

Edited by Amonimus on Apr 8th 2022 at 10:52:24 PM

The suspension I was referring to was referenced in this post in the moderation discussion thread, and it's what led to this discussion.

This is what I have always done and I’m actually surprised to learn that it’s not the style. (I very rarely bother with YMMV.)

I don’t think we need to be inconsistent for memes of all things.

Do you mean how Ho Yay tends to be organized by ship? Cuz I think that's a decent way to organize and prevent crappy indentation, but it also may encourage Shipping Goggles... which is its own issue.

If there's only one spin-off meme, putting it on the same bullet point as the parent meme sounds reasonable.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Apr 8th 2022 at 3:00:24 AM

Ah, got it.

If we go with the "successive memes go on sub-bullets only if there's more than one", the format can go

Please add entries in the following format:

• The meme. ^Explanation The explanation behind the meme.
  • Further mutations and successor memes, if any. If there's only one, put it in the primary bullet.

With the acknowledgement that I dislike our "quote" [hide context in a label note] style, that modification probably introduces the least change.

Another slight modification would be that instead of describing the original meme in the first bullet, the general idea of the meme is described instead. Then the original and first mutation can both go on separate second-level indentation.

Some Ho Yay pages get excessively detailed about certain ships, going into some Fridge territory by using "supporting evedience" towards exanples from other work's moments and blantly include other X-Yay tropes, so I wonder if (folders too, though I don't object to them) is something that was like since forever or there just wasn't enough cleanup effort.

There's also a thing with Dueling Works (TRS is still ongoing) that is also turned into an exception for example writing.

I'm not confident what to do with memes since it's the only exception for examples I can think of besides CM and MB forbidding edits without the thread.

I'm not opposed to the "only if there's more mutations" rule. It certainly makes way more sense than the current style.

BTW, I actually made this thing months ago, the suspension only reminded me of it.

Edited by WarJay77 on Apr 8th 2022 at 5:25:04 AM

That's already the rule. The proposal is "sub indent only if there are two or more mutations"

That's what I meant, yeah. By "more mutations" I meant "more than one".

Big bump, as this came up in ATT. Did we ever agree on anything? Or is there anything to agree on?

We haven't really and it's leaning on leaving everything as-is because there wasn't enough discussion.

There are always things to talk about, but I don't feel like brainstorming if I don't really object with how it works.

Now that I think it, we can discuss if there should be a note at either Memetic Mutation page or Example Indentation in Trope Lists that some Sub Wiki pages are just "built differently".