Mohs Scale of Hardness Cleanup

On Live-Action TV, Criminal Minds was increased to level 10, with the argument that even though the nasty stuff is offscreen, the sheer depravity and impact brings it up there anyway. Originally it was at level 8 prior. I wanted to bring this up here because as far as I've seen, other works with extremely horrific yet offscreen depravity didn't get up to level 10 for it. Sure, everything listed under Monster.Criminal Minds is gross, but if it isn't actually shown, then I can't see the argument for putting it up there with shows that actually do depict their carnage onscreen. (and while I haven't seen the show, the fact that none of its episodes got an 18 rating by the BBFC when they especially crack down on sadistic onscreen violence suggests it isn't really shown. In fact, the villain listed on the page that skinned people alive was in a 12-rated episode, further suggesting it isn't shown onscreen)

The best comparison I can give is how the Pokémon games are on level 2 and the Pokedex entries contain minimally detailed yet still overt mentions of melting prey with acid or tearing them up and drinking their fluids. While not on the same level as Criminal Minds, I still wouldn't give the series a level 5 or so just for things we don't actually see. This also reminds me of the Johnny Got His Gun debacle earlier on this thread.

Edited by KingofNightmares on Jul 22nd 2023 at 1:10:21 AM

I've never seen Criminal Minds, but I'm opposed to having implied violence get a work a level 10. Personally, I don't think completely offscreen/implied violence (where nothing is shown) should be higher than a level 5 (not saying Criminal Minds deserves to be placed on level 5, just saying that if something is only mentioned in dialogue it shouldn't be a 10). I'd vote to move it back to level 8.

Those are my thoughts. Like I said, I haven't seen the show.

Just had an interesting thought.

What if a work's logo before or after is more violent than the work itself? How would that be classified? Now, this may sound like an unusual concept, but the AVID (a wiki dedicated to logos in these forms) has an entire category for logos that have content warnings for graphic violence. Now, most of these aren't anything to worry about, as many are either for TV channels or appear on works that are already violent to begin with. However, there are two that raise questions:

• The a.k.a. Cartoon logo from Ed, Edd n Eddy, which shows a drawing of a cartoon guy with a pencil bursting out of his head (the underside of the pencil is barely visible as well under him), along with two visible drops that may be blood (but are colored the same as the drawing). Already pretty gruesome for a kid's show, but then there's the variant on the Halloween Episode, which puts a blood splatter effect on the logo◊
• The Neversoft logos, almost all of which depict a living, detached eyeball (complete with an optic nerve and other flesh in most versons) that has a spear going from the top of it through the bottom of it, with plenty of versions showing the spear going through with a slight amount of red particles and squishy sound effects. So far, the only M-rated games any versions of this logo have appeared on are Gun (which is level 10) and Call of Duty: Ghosts (which is level 7), and ironically, these are some of the tamer versions. Even Spider-Man (2000), which is rated E, had one of the versions where the spear is seen going through the eye.

Now, I personally feel like it would be silly rating works based on their logos, but I still wanted to see how others felt.

I don't think that works should be rated by such logos, but I don't have a problem with mentioning violent logos in the context note for a work, if that makes sense.

As someone who can't stomach live action gore but loves Sweeney Todd, I think putting the film all the way at level 10 is a bit much. Yes, there's throat slashing and a lot of blood, but there's not much in the way of gore or viscera. Putting it at the same level as Terrifier 2 and a higher rating than Made in Abyss is a bit of an exaggeration. I think an 8 is more appropriate, maybe a 9 at most.

Thanks for your feedback.

It was on level 8 originally, although the entry didn't mention as many things as the current entry does. I haven't seen the movie, but if the scene described as bringing it to level 10 is exaggerated in the description, that would be good to know.

The film (Sweeney Todd) used to be rated lower, as has been stated already. I haven't seen the movie in question, but it doesn't really sound particularly level 10ish to me.

This is the scene in question. It's certainly bloody but not not torture porn levels, it's more like the High-Pressure Blood you'd see in a shonen anime. Maybe a 9 at most.

Edited by ninjamitsuki2 on Oct 14th 2023 at 5:08:08 AM

If that's as violent as the film gets, I'd say levels 8 to 9 should taken into consideration.

Yeah, I agree. Level 9 at absolute worst there, maybe even level 8 (I remember some entries on level 9 bringing up repeated neck stabbings like Law Abiding Citizen, but I haven't seen that one so it may be even worse than this one)

Alright, I guess I'll change it back.

I noticed on the Mohs Scale of Violence Hardness page that Willy Wonka & the Chocolate Factory is at level 9, because of "what appears to be brief unsimulated footage of an actual chicken being decapitated during the psychedelic boat trip scene. " I get that "Use of footage of real-world graphic violence" ranks high on the scale, but you can't tell me WILLY WONKA is at the same level of violence as Begotten, Event Horizon, or The Human Centipede. I think it should be lowered a lot.

Edited by HaydenM2001 on Feb 24th 2024 at 11:35:20 AM

To be honest, I feel like this is a point you could make about a lot of entries. Still, it being real footage of violence coupled with the way the scale is ranked means that it will score a high rating.

That said, if the scale were to be remade so that the consistency throughout affects the ultimate placement, then I can think of a lot of works that are going down on the scale (Sanjuro, Logan's Run, Army of Darkness, etc.).

I get that, but it feels really out-of-place to put a children's film on the same level as the films I mentioned, or numerous other hard R horror and slashers, especially since it says it would be at level 3 otherwise. I think it should be a 5-6 at the highest.

i don't really see how unsimulated violence tracks as same category but more so compared to fake violence. Its just ... a different category altogether. it doesn't really make sense to say that "killing a real chicken" is equivalently violent to "brutal and graphic fictional torture" in terms of media. Its apples to oranges.

what's actually seen on screen is "brief death of an animal". The question of an animal actually being killed, or not, is basically offscreen information. We don't rank a movie as more violent if one of the stunts actually got the stuntperson injured irl

Edited by Tremmor19 on Feb 24th 2024 at 1:22:29 PM

I was the one who placed Willy Wonka & the Chocolate Factory on level 9, in accordance with the "Use of real-life dead animals and people will always score at least here [level 8]" rule, which I did not write. My reasoning was that if a real-life animal carcass would rate an 8, the unsimulated, onscreen beheading of one would be a notch higher (level 9).

Unsimulated violence is admittedly very tricky, as documentaries/non-fiction are excluded from the scale (a rule that I did make and stand by), but if unsimluated gore appears in a fiction work, I suppose it must be factored into the work's level.

I fairly strongly disagree with simulated and unsimulated violence being rated the same, though, as simulated human gore and unsimulated human gore are going to register very, very differently in the mind (and, if simulated human gore is measured differently than unsimulated human gore, why not apply such a rule to animals?).

All of this being said, I am very open to changing Willy Wonka & the Chocolate Factory's level if we reach a consensus. Under the current rules, though, it probably wouldn't rank lower than an 8, but, with the alteration of the main page's rules, I could see it as low as a level 7 or so.

Those are just my thoughts.

Honestly, I think it shouldn't be any higher than 5. The description says it's a level 3 otherwise, and a few second-shot shouldn't elevate it that much higher. In general, I feel like as Kingofnightmares said, consistency throughout should matter more.

Edited by HaydenM2001 on Feb 24th 2024 at 6:07:33 AM

Well, I wasn't advocating for the rules to be altered, I was just saying that the system rates a work based on its highest moment. And other films have this as well (such as Don Jon being level 8, but it would be level 0 if not for that one scene listed)

I noticed that Diamonds Are Forever is on both Level 3 and Level 6 at the same time. Both entries are heavily different.

I've seen the film, but it's been ages. I'm not responsible for either edit, but, from what I remember, I think the movie's closer to level 3. I don't really think the brief bikini-choking, for example, is 6ish in nature.

Diamonds Are Forever I would say is more Lighter and Softer than other Bond films (especially compared to the movies that come before and after chronologically). It has it’s fair share of weird deaths, but it’s nowhere near as violent as, say, The Texas Chainsaw Massacre 1974, which is also Level 6.

Moved "Saturday Night's Alright For Fighting" by Elton John from a 6 to 4 on the Rock and Metal Hardness scale, because it's essentially slightly harder '50s rock and doesn't really fit in with, say, "Iron Man" or "Helter Skelter". Does that seem fair?

Also, where should "Modern Times Rock 'N' Roll" by Queen go? It's currently at a 7, but while it does feel proto thrash/speed metal I wouldn't say it's quite as hard as "Stone Cold Crazy" (which is more solidly a 7, their heaviest song)

Edited by HaydenM2001 on Apr 5th 2024 at 5:45:51 AM

Also, I recently noticed that Inuyasha and Yu Yu Hakusho are at a level 5 on the violence hardness scale. To me that seems a bit low for them, especially YYH. Both shows can get very bloody at times. Unless i'm forgetting something, the goriest Inuyasha gets is probably episode 102, and for YYH it's the end of the Kurama vs. Karasu fight.

Edited by HaydenM2001 on Apr 6th 2024 at 6:47:57 AM