Unreleased Work Page Cleanup (Speculation, Spoilers, ZCE etc.)

Gotcha. I'll hold off until you're finished then.

The feedback was warranted and welcome, no need to regret.

Thanks for the feedback on VideoGame.Shin Sakura Wars. I'm still doing a major cleanup of this page at the moment.

Okay, I just created Stuber. I just need some thoughts and approval before I move it to the Film/ namespace.

Baldur's Gate III has been launched and the description is very poor...

Edited by Silverblade2 on Jun 8th 2019 at 3:09:57 PM

Most obvious 1. no release date

Motion to cutlist.

Cutlist.

cutlist due to no game footage existing, even if there was a release date.

Edited by Albert3105 on Jun 8th 2019 at 10:03:45 AM

Sorry if the answer has been buried in the past comments already...

But what are we going to do for Video Games that will be featured in E3 2019?

I've cutlisted the Baldur's Gate III page.

We cross that bridge when we come to it.

And maybe throw a lot of things in the cutlist afterward.

Edited by Crossover-Enthusiast on Jun 8th 2019 at 10:17:38 AM

Troper Elastic Pleurodeline has been working to rewrite some of the hidden Film.The Lion King 2019 entries, and my comments on them are starting to get a little long for edit reasons, so I figured it was time to bring them here:

• Adapted Out: Based on current materials, Rafiki does not have his famous stick (referred to in The Lion Guard as a "bakorra staff") this time around. Adapted Out refers to characters, not props, so this is shoehorning. It's also speculation; just because the stick is not present in the trailers doesn't mean it won't be present in the film.
• Animal Talk: As in the original film, all the animals (with dialogue at least) speak the same language. Speculation. Just because it was true of the original film doesn't mean it will be true of the remake, and this entry doesn't have any citation.
• Big Good: Mufasa, the king of the Pride Lands and loving dad to Simba, who throughout the trailers can be heard telling his son about the responsibility of kingship and how to rule in a fair and selfless manner. From Creating a Work Page for an Upcoming Work, we should avoid "Tropes that depend on their role in the story. If you don’t have the full story, you don’t know how it fits into the narrative." The entry text does a good job of establishing Mufasa as a good father and a good king, but that doesn't necessarily make him the Big Good of the overall story. We won't know whether that trope applies until the film is out.
• Elephant Graveyard: Downplayed; the main trailer shows that while skeletal remains are present in the hyena den site, there are few if any that are clearly identifiable as elephants, likely because the filmmakers realize that elephant graveyards are largely fictional. If there are no elephant bones, it's not an Elephant Graveyard, and thus Not An Example.
• Evil Uncle: Scar; brother to Mufasa and envious of his position on the throne, the trailers featuring him make it very clear that he seeks to take over the Pride Lands through less than honorable means. ZCE. Is he established in the trailers as being someone's uncle? And exactly how do the trailers establish that he seeks to take over the Pride Lands and what his means for doing so are?
• Misplaced Wildlife:
  • A downplayed example with the giraffes seen throughout the promotional materials, which specifically resemble the Rothschild giraffe subspecies/ecotype.^note Depending on which phylogeny you choose to follow, it is either a distinct subspecies (Giraffe camelopardalis rothschildi) or just an ecomorph (G. c. camelopardalis). Despite these giraffes presently only found in a select few protected regions of Uganda and western Kenya, their historical distribution was wider only a few centuries ago and likely would've encompassed the Serengeti-Mara region proper alongside their cousins, the Maasai giraffe (G. c. tippelskirchi), which don't appear in any of the footage despite being the most common giraffe in the region. I tend to be suspicious of anything labeled a "downplayed example," and indeed, this appears to be shoehorning. It sounds like it's perfectly plausible for the Rothschild giraffe to be present in the setting.

I've also hidden the problem entries on Final Fantasy VII Remake (enumerated on the previous page) until Albert or someone else gets the chance to continue fixing them.

Edited by HighCrate on Jun 8th 2019 at 8:01:27 AM

Just in general, under the new policy, “negatives” like Adapted Out will almost never fit in upcoming work pages, do I have that right?

It seems to me that tropes that rely on the absence of an element in a work are hard to prove until we have the entirety of the work to consult for context.

There are, of course, tropes like Sir Not-Appearing-in-This-Trailer that specifically rely on the absence of an element in the marketing as opposed to in the work, but those nearly always rely on a comparison between the marketing and the work proper that we can't make until we have the work proper for comparison.

Additionally, I tend to be skeptical of Media Adaptation Tropes in general pre-release, as those tend to involve a comparison between the work being adapted and the work doing the adapting that are hard to make when we don't have full access to the latter. I'm not prepared to say that they can never apply— there might be some weird edge case that I haven't considered— but I would definitely look at them very closely.

Edited by HighCrate on Jun 8th 2019 at 8:20:19 AM

From Abominable:

• Disappeared Dad: In the first trailer, everyone talks about Yi's father in the past tense.

This strikes me as pretty thin context. Is the dad missing? Dead? Divorced? I'm inclined to comment it out, but as I've been back and forth on this page a bit with folks trying to do cleanup from the other end (rehabilitating hidden examples so they can be restored), I don't want to take action without getting more input.

It's an outright ZCE, as how the father disappeared is not explained, nor of how the disappearance affects the characters or the plot.

Edited by Albert3105 on Jun 8th 2019 at 1:50:33 PM

Thanks, that was my read too, but it's good to get a second opinion.

Yeah hey, High Crate, I think you went a little overboard on the Marvel Ultimate Alliance 3 page. And I thought it was bad when you tried to argue that Marvel was lying about Valkyrie being in Endgame - oh, and look at how she was totally in the movie, by the way.

I motion that the following tropes be un-hidden:

- Artifact of Doom: The Stones have been shown various times, and Corvus has outright been shown demanding the Stones.

- The Bus Came Back: All those characters have been confirmed to return.

- Cast Speciation: Again, confirmed.

- Crisis Crossover: The Ultimate Alliance games are this by default. It's a given.

- Enemy Mine: Magneto literally says 'Perhaps an alliance is called for after all.'

I think at the very, very least, Crisis Crossover should be un-hidden. Artifact of Doom is the one I advocate for the most after that.

Edited by ThePantherMan on Jun 8th 2019 at 2:05:25 PM

If those tropes are present in publicly-available, tropable materials, then the entry text should be edited to cite those materials.

If you haven't already, I'd recommend a close reading of Creating a Work Page for an Upcoming Work.

For convenience, here is the text of those entries as it's written now, along with my notes on why they were hidden:

• Artifact of Doom: Those pesky Infinity Stones are back and our heroes are racing against time and the Black Order to get them before Thanos does. ZCE, possible shoehorning. From Artifact of Doom: "The Artifact of Doom is an unusual villain in that it is a (seemingly) inanimate object that somehow manages to be pure evil." The entry text sounds more like a MacGuffin.
• The Bus Came Back:
  • A meta-example as this game marks the first official Marvel-related console game to feature the X-Men since 2013's LEGO Marvel Super Heroes. The words "a meta-example" are always suspicious to me; they're often used as Weasel Words to justify shoehorning. From the trope description: "After a main character gets explicitly written out of a story, we often never see them again. This trope is about when they return once again, to work with the current main characters." How were the X-Men explicitly written out of the story of the Marvel Ultimate Alliance games? Answer that question, then cite the source for saying that they came back.
  • From an in-series standpoint, this marks the return of Doctor Strange, Elektra, Ultimo, and Ultron, who appeared in the first game but then were dropped come the second game. ZCE. Were these four characters explicitly written out of the story, or did they just not show up without explanation?
• Cast Speciation: The developers made an effort to differentiate Miles Morales and Spider-Gwen from the base Peter Parker Spider-Man. Miles' attacks primarily involve his electrical and stealth abilities, while Gwen has a dimensional teleportation device that she can use. From Cast Speciation: "...any character who starts mirroring another too closely will have a different personality which affects the outcome of their work, or will be given a noticeably different job." For full context, first establish that these characters started to mirror each other too closely. Then establish the differences in their personalities or jobs within the story (not power sets, since different power sets could be used to accomplish the same task, or the same power sets could be used to accomplish different tasks). Finally, do both of the above while citing your sources, sticking only to publicly-released tropable materials.
• Crisis Crossover: The game unites all corners of the Marvel Universe from the Avengers, Guardians of the Galaxy, Defenders, Spider-Verse, Inhumans, and finally, the X-Men, to collect the Infinity Stones before Thanos and the Black Order does. Furthermore, outside of them, there's a wide assortment of villains such as Ultron, Green Goblin, Kingpin, Mystique, Surtur and Dormammu who also want the Stones for themselves. Nothing is "a given" in an unreleased work. Everything must be cited using publicly-available, tropable sources.
• Enemy Mine: The X-Men and the Brotherhood working together, seeing as the Brotherhood drops in by ripping the roof off of the X-Mansion. ZCE. What is their common goal that causes them to work together? Make sure to cite your sources.

Edited by HighCrate on Jun 8th 2019 at 12:24:54 PM

Alright, I will back down on Ao D, TBCB, and CS.

I think we can delete the Ao D entry entirely, and replace it with MacGuffin. As for Enemy Mine, perhaps we can specify that Magneto is uniting with the heroes against the Black Order. If you reject those, I will back down on those two tropes as well.

But Crisis Crossover...it's the Avengers, Defenders, X-Men, Guardians, and Spider-Verse heroes teaming up against a multitude of villains. The whole idea of the Ultimate Alliance games is to bring together a ton of heroes from across the Marvel Universe, with a giant story. I'm not trying to be a smartass, I just sincerely don't see how this game isn't a crisis crossover.

Digimon Survive has several tropes seen in interviews, trailers, and pre-release data that could be added back in, but if we have to limit it to three I think Ascended Extra, Bond Creatures, and Mythology Gag would be the best fit.

https://www.gamespot.com/digimon-survive/

https://www.gamespot.com/articles/digimon-adventure-anime-influenced-upcoming-digimo/1100-6467286/

Edited by lalalei2001 on Jun 8th 2019 at 12:33:51 PM

I'm not saying that it isn't. I'm saying that if it is shown to be through publicly-available, tropable materials, then those materials need to be cited in the entry text.

Three is the minimum number of entries that a work must have to be page-worthy, but it can have more than three if there are that many valid examples.

The thing is that those valid examples need to be backed up by full context derived from publicly-available, tropable works like trailers, gameplay footage, etc. Word of God or magazine and website articles don't count.

See Creating a Work Page for an Upcoming Work for the full guidelines on pre-release work pages.

Edited by HighCrate on Jun 8th 2019 at 12:46:33 PM

Hmmmmm alright, I understand where you're coming from now. What kind of sources should I try to find?

I feel like wholly deleting a commented example for FFVIIR:

• No Celebrities Were Harmed: Jessie's new design makes her look like Kim Kardashian.

It should be deleted because it's currently used as People Sit on Chairs - "X looks like a celeb to me" conveys no narrative meaning or convention.

Edited by Albert3105 on Jun 8th 2019 at 4:05:38 AM