During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
On the subject of the film version of V, is anyone going to do an EP? Or is he similar enough to his comicbook counterpart that we can just modify the current write-up for his comicbook counterpart?
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
I was under the impression that he was to similar to his comic conterpart to need another write up. I mean it's been years since I have watched or read either.
Edited by Bullman on May 19th 2020 at 2:55:32 PM
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
He counts in the film and he should have an EP and separate writeup for it given how things go down differently.
My post earlier was just snark about my dislike for that version.
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
All good, I added the second line for clarity after all.
Edited by 43110 on May 19th 2020 at 5:14:21 AM
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Okay my bad. Sorry for assuming.
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Also, an amendment I'd like to call for:
- The Perfection: Charlotte and Lizzy perfectly execute a dark scheme by the film's end. After being raped and abused by Anton of Bachoff Academy, Charlotte recognizes her new lover Lizzy suffers from Anton's brainwashing and manipulates and drugs her into severing her hand to destroy her talent with a cello, forcing Lizzy to recognize Anton cares nothing for her when he coldly throws her away after. The two proceed to ally and form a scheme where Charlotte is "captured" by Lizzy and delivered to Bachoff, Anton thinking he has them in hand. Lizzy poisons Anton's allies, and the two dispatch everyone Anton has around him before defeating Anton himself, ending the film by leaving him a limbless, eyeless, tongue-less husk of himself, forced to listen as the two triumphantly play the cello as one.
Charlotte is fine... I've got my own issues with the writing and how it impacts her plans but we listed Eisenheim, she's the smartest person in the film and acted competently enough I don't mind labeling her charming and she tricks Lizzy into maiming herself so she's dark enough... but Lizzy? Her "bitch" credentials are poisoning Anton's rapist buddies and then in the edgiest villain send off ever cuts up Anton with Charlotte—if you're bored and have Netflix I recommend giving it a watch—but the issue with her brutality? That's it she's got for nastiness and do you know what Complete Monster Anton isn't doing now that he's been crippled? Continuing to rape people! We said no to Tom Robinson because his claim to "Bastard-dom" was burying Human Trafficker Dolan alive and while this is written to be more visceral, the end result in the same: a horrible human being has been stopped and honestly? A civic good has been done, regardless of intent. Lizzy isn't a bitch, I'll rework the entry a bit (Charlotte has a last name for one thing) but I think Lizzy is a dark Guile Heroine not bumped up because of edgy writing, even if the film tries to act like it's a dark, scary end there really isn't anything going in her favour in regard to the latter aspect of this trope.
Lizzid people!
I mean...sure, the punishment is karmic for Anton, but the sheer brutality of it is nevertheless still f*cked up. I'll abstain since the movie didn't interest me.
I take issue with us stamping MB on people who are pretty much clear cut good guys just because the director felt like being an edgelord with the bad guy's end. Should we put members of Night Raid because Honest's death was a pile of trashy gore?
I feel like saying no to Robinson but yes here puts the list in a state of double-standard: if Dolan's death had been gorier would that suddenly make him nasty enough? Hundreds of people are being saved from trafficking because of what was done.
Edited by 43110 on May 19th 2020 at 7:13:26 AM
I do see your point 43. The thing that's giving me pause, is that Lizzy is ultimately allied with Charlotte, and as such is giving tacit approval to what Charlotte did to her. I'm not sure if that makes Lizzy dark enough, but I can understand how others might.
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
are you actually thinking about posting those guys from Akame Ga Kill or are you being sarcastic? (I have a hard time telling the difference) Does anyone count in Akame Ga Kill?
Alright, well with my interest in Sword Art Online having been renewed, I have finished watching the first two seasons and the movie Sword Art Online The Movie: Ordinal Scale where surprise surprise I’ve found a candidate worth discussing, so lets talk about the movie.
What’s The Work?
Ordinal Scale is interquel taking place between the Mother's Rosario and Alicization story arcs. The basic premise is that the AR device called Augma has been released to the public and with it comes a new game called Ordinal Scale which becomes a massive hit as people in masses begin playing it. However the Augma and Ordinal Scale has some dark secret which can be traced back to its creator Tetsuhiro Shigemura.
Who is He? What Has He Done?
Professor Tetsuhiro Shigemura is the Big Bad of the movie and the creator of the Augma and its game Ordinal Scale to which he distributes to everyone in the globe. However the true purpose of the Augma and the game is to make gamers to relive their memories from the Death Game, Sword Art Online, so that he could steal them in hopes of using them to revive his daughter who died from that game.
He does so by having them fight bosses from SAO which causes them to relive those experience while having his dragon Eiji Nochizawa attack them to ensure their defeats while he then collects their memories from SAO in his attempts to rebuild his daughter, Yuuna Shigemura, already stealing memories numerous gamers, including Asuna Yuuki.
With countless memories already stolen Tetsushiro sets up his endgame by gathering all the SAO player in one place by hosting a concert for AI pop star, Yuna, where plan unleashes all the bosses on the game where he can steal all their memories in one swoop, though in this process it would risk the players receiving brain damage and could even end up dying just like how Kayaba used the Nerve Gear.
He even attempts to steal Eiji’s memories of Yuna since he was the closest to her out of all the players having been her lover. Upon his plan being in near completion, he is stopped in the last minute by his AI copy daughter who tells the heroes to defeat the Final Boss of SAO allowing them to defeat him.
Yuna to comfort her father before disappearing for good telling him that she will always be with him. Tetsushiro is then taken into custody by fellow MB Seijirō Kikuoka which Tetsushiro accepts with grace, though is surprise that Seijiro has no intentions of arresting him, but rather recruit him into his company Rath because he was so impressed by Tetsushiro attempt at AI and soul reconstruction.
Is He Intelligent? Is He Charismatic?
Being a professor who taught Akihiko Kayaba and Nobuyuki Sugou (the only time we’ll ever mention the latter here) everything about VR technology and being genius in AR technology having create the tech and game based on Kayaba’s work an using them for his own plans Tetsushiro is extremely intelligent.
Not only that but he’s also a master planner manipulating hoards of people into playing his game before taking away their memories including his own dragon Eiji while using their memories to artificially re-create his daughter and only fails in the last minute because his daughter decides to go against him, not wanting the people to get killed for the sake of her revival.
As for charisma, Tetsushiro is cool headed and charming who never once breaks from his stoic demeanor, even accepting his defeat with grace. His genius and charisma is even admired by fellow MB Seijiro, who wants to recruit him for his own agenda. To add to his likability he’s one of the, if not the most, sympathetic antagonists in the whole series being a grieving father who is willing to do anything to bring her back to life.
What’s The Competition Like?
Being the mentor of fellow MB Akihiko everything about VR while gaining the admiration of fellow MB of Seijiro Kikuoka, I would say that Testsushiro clears the competition here by far with none of the other villains aside from Kayaba and Seijiro, coming close to his level of genius and charisma.
Is He A Bitch? Is He Too Much of a Bitch?
Tetsushiro tricks countless players to playing his game where he makes them relive the trauma that they experienced in SAO before stealing their memories, has Eiji attack and defeat many players before double-crossing him to steal his memories, and is willing to kill numerous players to steal their memories so I’d say he’s definitely a bastard.
That said Tetsushiro is far from the worst villain in SAO as he takes no pleasure in his crimes and everything that he has done to all to bring his daughter back from the dead. It also helps that he’s not a deliberately trying to antagonize Kirito like the other villains, as that title goes to The Heavy Eiji, so yeah Tetsushiro isn’t too much of a bastard to be disqualified.
Final Verdict?
I think he’s a keeper, but I’ll leave that decision up to you guys.
are you saying yes to my candidate or saying yes to confirm that you were being sarcastic or are you saying yes to both?
Okay thanks I was just making sure, as I can get confused very easily. Also to everyone else don't forget to vote for my candidate.
Edited by G-Editor on May 19th 2020 at 1:21:46 AM
... I don't understand how allying with the person who tricked you to cut your arm off over the person who repeatedly raped you have anything with being "dark" enough to qualify.
Yes... huh? I'm saying I think your candidate keeps.
Edited by 43110 on May 19th 2020 at 7:19:32 AM
Well...Lizzie sure as hell wasn't involved when Charlotte tricked her into chopping her hand off.
I'm gonna abstain largely, but I should note Night Raid didn't actually do anything to Honest there. Leone beat him and threw him off the building, then the rebel army were the ones who enacted said punishment. Night Raid never engaged in torture or anything like that. Ultimately, it's a question I pose to the thread: Is a torture/fate for a villain that fucked enough to slot you in 'bastard' or do we not want to go there?
I really don't like opening the door to "I was really mean to a CM, can I be a bitch/bastard now?" That opens the door to sympathizing with a character we've labeled as the worst of the absolute worst and risks decaying as we cram the list with Guile Heroes... we've said no in this circumstance before, I don't see why this gets a pass because it's gross.
My point was yes she wasn't involved with it, but she comes to see the action as neccessary. Keep in mind i'm not arguing for keeping, I'm abstaining at this point.
Edited by jjjj2 on May 19th 2020 at 7:19:40 AM
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
I can't really get behind that... she loved Charlotte, we can't backdate a crime to say "She allied with someone she loves, she basically cut off the hand of an innocent person and that bumps up her bad-ness level."
No G, no one in AGK keeps and regardless of who did what to Honest, it's the same badly written "Villain was X bad so gets X for punishment" fate that I'm not entertaining.
Edited by 43110 on May 19th 2020 at 7:22:43 AM
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Tetsuhiro.
to Erwin and Tetsuhiro
The Draftsman of Doom
Tetsuhiro.
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Yes to Tetsuhiro.
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
While we're voting on G's candidate can I get some more feedback on Lizzy? I'll hear arguments to keep her but frankly, right now I don't see any of the points being made in her favour in comparison to her partner who plays the bulk of the scheme and has clearer credentials towards dubious morales. This really just feels like a case of letting a lesser character ride off another's coattails and pretend like they're equals.
There are others to cast votes.
Edited by 43110 on May 19th 2020 at 8:30:33 AM
Lizzid people!
I already said I was abstaining on that one.
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Abstaining on Lizzy. I haven't watched the movie, and never will for very personal reasons. So I can't comment.
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
The Draftsman of Doom
I think Lizzie is a cut if she does as little of the work as you say. Keep Charlotte, however.
Anton's atrocities also play a factor, I agree.
Edited by SkyCat32 on May 19th 2020 at 8:46:22 AM
Cut Lizzy, and yes to Tetsuhiro.
She's objectively the smaller partner in the scheme and again, I don't get why we block you from Robison but put her up. My main contention is we seem to be doing an absurd stretch of "Bastard" and I have yet to see a satisfactory counterpoint without just "Well it's awful, so I abstain" while ignoring everything Anton was.
Edited by 43110 on May 19th 2020 at 8:38:35 AM
Whoops, that was my bad... I'll ask for him to be moved over.