During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
No, Kylo, he doesn't count. The writing might not be consistent but he's meant to be the same character.
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
Understood.
Things are really about to get Fun around here
Anyway, here's a write-up for Abby.
- It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia: Abby is a con artist who Dennis meets at a water park. Scamming Dennis into giving him money by acting as his neglected daughter in front a woman he was trying to seduce, Dennis takes and interest in her, and decides to take Abby under her wing. After being taught to steal right in front of the victim's face by Dennis, the two go on a scamming spree throughout the water park, putting all the valuables in a locker. Eventually, Abby tells Dennis that she's being forced to leave by her mother, and gives Dennis a memento as thanks for being the first adult to care about her. When Dennis confronts who Abby said was her mother, Dennis finds out that the woman isn't Abby's mother at all, and that Abby took the opportunity to swipe the locker key from Dennis and make off with all their stolen goods for herself, further impressing him.
Age Of Trope Empire saving the day again.
I shall switch to a ![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
For Mc Cain.
Okay so moving on from that Obama/McCain fiasco I think I’ve just found a worthy candidate from a game I just finished playing. The game in question is Shadow of the Tomb Raider.
What’s The Work?
Shadow of the Tomb Raider is a 2018 video game that serves as the final installment of Lara Croft’s origin trilogy. The story follows Lara Croft as she travels the tropical regions of the Americas to the legendary city Paititi, battling the evil organization Trinity and stop the Mayan apocalypse she accidentally unleashed. Now the candidate in question is Dr. Pedro Dominguez.
Who Is He? What Has He Done?
Dr. Pedro Dominguez is the Big Bad of this game and the Greater-Scope Villain of Lara Croft’s origin story.
Born as Amaru in the hidden Peruvian city of Paititi, he would join the Cult of Kukulkan, a proxy for Trinity who through the cult manipulated Paititi's rulers, including Amaru’s brother Sayri. Amaru would then be adopted by Trinity’s leader Cardinal Gualtiero de Luca Dominguez, who gave him the name Pedro Domingez, showed him life outside Paititi, and groomed him to become his successor.
After the Cardinal dies and Amaru becomes the new leader of Trinity while also obtaining a PhD in archeology, he would use this new position to expose the leaders of the Cult of Kukuklan as outsiders, taking over as the Cult’s new leader, while also convincing the people Paititi to pick him as their ruler over his late brother’s wife, Unuratu, saying that he can better protect the city from outsiders.
Willing to do anything to protect Paititi from the outside world, he would use Trinity’s resources to find a pair of artifacts, the Key of Chak Chel and the Silver Box of Ix Chel. The former alone would user the Mayan Apocalypse, but with the Silver Box, Dominguez can remake the world into his image and forever protect Paititi form the outside world.
During his search for the two artifacts he would come into befriend fellow Richard Croft who was researching into the supernatural and immortality to bring back his deceased wife. When Richard discovers Paititi and refusing to listen to Domingez pleas not expose its existence to the outside world, Domingez would send Trinity agent Ana to seduce and kill him. When that failed due to Ana developing genuine feelings for Richard he sends another assassin to do the jobs and succeeds this time.
When Ana was about to reveal to Richard’s daughter Lara Croft his killer in Serbia, Dominguez has his second-in-command Rouke kill her but spare Lara in hopes that she can be recruited to Trinity in the future.
Eventually Dominguez would meet Lara on the Mexican island Cozumel where he retrieves the Key of Chak Chel Lara just got before revealing to her that without the Silver Box the Key would usher the Mayan Apocalypse, before saying that it’s up to him now to find the box stop the apocalypse and remake the world so that it would no longer be a threat to Paititi.
Deciding to follow Lara as she find the Silver Box, he forces Lara to give the Silver Box by holding her friend Jonah hostage while also revealing to her that he had her father killed.
With both the Key and the Silver Box in his position, Dominguez goes to the Great Pyramid of Paititi to conduct the Sun Ritual to remake the world and keep Paititi safe forever. However Lara with the help of the Yaaxil arrive to interrupt the ritual and Lara would duel with Dominguez, who now has godlike powers.
After a long enduring battle, Lara was finally able to defeat Dominguez, prevent the Apocalypse from happen and avenge her father’s murder. Before Dominguez officially dies however, he asked Lara to protect Paititi, to which Lara promises that she will allowing Dominguez to die in peace.
Is He Intelligent? Is He Charismatic?
As a doctor in archeology he’s definitely intelligent. He knows a lot about the ancient world and the powerful artifacts they hold having his men travel throughout the world to receiver them so he might use them to protect Paititi. He’s also smart enough let Lara retrieve both artifacts for him before taking them for himself and fully aware that his agent Ana would use the Divine Source for herself rather than for Trinity sending Rouke to Siberia to follow Ana and have her killed when she was about to tell her Dominguez part in Richard’s murder.
He’s also very charismatic, in that he was able to become both the leader of Trinity, the High Priest of the Cult of Kukulkan, and ruler of Paititi all at once, by using his charm to sway the people of Paititi to elect him as their ruler while having the previous cult leaders removed on claims that they are outsiders, and persuading all of Trinity to follow his agenda. A basically takes the Villain with Good Publicity trope to the max here.
What’s The Competition Like?
Dominguez is arguably the smartest and charismatic villain in the Lara Croft’s origin trilogy. The only one that I think might match him would be Ana who manipulates both her brother Konstantin and Lara into getting the Divine Source for her in Rise, though I have some reservation of her and in the end Domingez outplays her by having her killed. Of course Mathias from the first installment is too deplorable to count, while Himiko doesn’t personally do enough to qualify. So yeah Domingez is looking good here.
Is He a Bastard? Is He Too Much of a Bastard?
Okay he’s the leader of an evil organization, take Unuratu’s place as ruler of Paititi, has Lara Croft’s father assassinated, is willing to kill off his own subordinates, and was going to use the Key and Silver Box to remake the world into his own image. So yeah I’d say he qualifies as a bastard.
However he has numerous admirable qualities that prevents him from being too much of a bastard. He had brother whom he genuinely loved and grieved his lost when he died, he doesn’t commit any of the deplorable acts that others did, like Mathias, and everything that he has done it was done to protect Paititi from the threats of the outside world, even asking Lara to protect Paititi for him when he was about to die, to which Lara promises that she would.
Final Verdict?
I’ll leave that to you guys.
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Dominguez
Yes to Dominguez, more like this please, G.
Seconded.
Goku Black
Dominguez
Dominguez.
Although I found that game to be pretty anti-climactic for a Grand Finale.
Edited by Morgenthaler on Mar 19th 2019 at 2:32:23 AM
You've got roaming bands of armed, aggressive, tyrannical plumbers coming to your door, saying "Use our service, or else!"
Dully noted 43110.
Also I want to ask this question. I know that being a Dirty Coward is a disqualifier for this trope, but is being afraid of dying also a disqualifier?
I'm saying this because there's one other character I've been thinking about. Don't worry its not from South Park but from Tomb Raider which Dominguez is apart of.
It's Ana from Rise of the Tomb Raider.
On one hand Ana has proven to be an impressive Manipulative Bitch manipulating both Lara and her own brother Konstantin into finding the Divine Source for her. The fact that she has her brother strangle her in front of Lara so that she can tell her the location of the Divine Source, proves how far Ana's willing to go to get what she wants. Plus she does have admirable qualities such as genuinely loving Richard Croft being unable to kill him and not being as godawful compared to the likes of Mathias and Himiko
On the other hand her reason for finding the Divine Source are for self-preservation, in that she wants to use the Divine Source to cure herself from her illness and become immortal so that Trinity would not be able to kill her, not to mention she tells her brother to stop strangling her when she realizes that Lara doesn't know where the Divine Source suggesting that she holds some fear of death. Plus Dominguez has her assassinated so that she won't reveal who killed Lara's father
It's kinda tough for me to decides on Ana, so I'm hoping see if anyone here besides me has played Rise so that I can get a second opinion to see wether or not Ana qualifies.
Edited by G-Editor on Mar 19th 2019 at 12:14:49 AM
Lizzid people!
It depends. I mean being afraid to die doesn't completely mean you're a coward...unless you try to preserve your life through cowardly actions.
You know what I think I’ll just EP her to see if she qualifies given that I’m a bit more confident with Ana more than McCain, so from Rise of the Tomb Raider here’s Ana.
Who Is She? What Has She Done?
Ana is a senior agent of Trinity and the true Big Bad of the second installment of Lara Croft’s origin story having manipulated her brother Konstantin into finding the Divine Source for her by cutting his hands with a knife while he slept, during their youth. She managed tricking him into believing that the marks appeared by God's will as a sign that he was his chosen warrior and that it was his duty to find the Divine Source.
Tasked by Trinity to assassinate Richard Croft, she would managed to get Richard to fall in love with her. However Ana herself also developed genuine feelings for Richard as well and was unable to kill him, resulting in another agent killing Richard instead.
Ana’s determination to find the Divine Source grew even further when she learns that she’s suffering from a terminal disease. Not only does she send her brother to find the Divine Source for her, she also manages to get Lara Croft involved in the search for the Divine Source by using reverse psychology knowing that this would cause her to find the source.
Capturing Lara Croft in Siberia, Ana pretends to be the hapless hostage having her brother strangle her so that Lara Croft can tell her where the Divine Source is. When Ana realizes Lara doesn’t no where the divine source is she has her brother stop strangling her, revealing her true allegiance to Trinity. She then offers Lara a chance to join Trinity only for Lara to refuse and escape her clutches.
When Ana learns about the Atlas and how it can lead her to the Divine Source, She and Konstantin follow her to its location, and retrieves the Atlas along with kidnapping Lara’s friend Jonah.
Using the Atlas to find the Divine Sources location, Ana was finally successful in retrieving the Divine Source at the cost of her brother’s death. She then reveals to Lara and Jacob that she has no interest in giving the Divine Source to Trinity, and instead plans to use it to cure herself of her disease and make herself immortal so that Trinity would no longer be able to kill her, who are infamous in killing off their own people once they’ve become a liability.
However when Ana does use the Divine Source on herself, her soul starts getting sucked out of her body. Luckily Lara Croft manages to save Ana and destroy the Divine Source.
Ana then reveals to Lara that Trinity had her father killed. Before she could reveal to Lara who in Trinity killed her, Ana gets shot by Rourke, leaving Lara’s questions unanswered and more determined to find her father’s murderer and put an end to Trinity nefarious schemes
Is She Intelligent? Is She Charismatic?
As a senior spy and assassin for Trinity Ana definitely has proven herself to be an excellent manipulator. She managed to manipulate her own brother throughout his entire into doing what she wants and manipulates Lara into searching for the Divine Source for her.
The lengths she goes to manipulate her pawns are very impressive, with one instance having her brother harm her to that Lara would be desperate enough to tell her where the Divine Source.
She’s also very charismatic enough to seduce Richard Croft and would having easily succeeded in killing Richard if she herself did not genuinely fall in love with Richard.
What’s The Competition Like?
The only one who could match Ana in terms of intelligence and charisma is her boss Dominguez. However I think Ana does enough to make herself stand out in that she is more hands on with her manipulations than he is. Other than Dominguez, no one else comes close to Ana’s cunning with her brother being a complete pawn to her scheming.
Is She a Bitch? Is She Too Much of a Bitch?
Okay she’s a member of an evil organization, manipulated her brother into becoming a religious nut, is a seductress, manipulates Lara into getting involved with Trinity, later tries to have her kill when she refuses to join Trinity, and plans to use the Divine Source to make herself immortal so Trinity can’t kill her.
That said Ana has her admirable qualities that prevents from being too much of a bitch. She was genuinely in love with Richard, being unable to kill him and offered his daughter Lara a chance to join her.
My only concern for her is that she’s seems to hold some fear of dying. However AustinDR said being afraid to die doesn't completely mean you're a coward, unless you try to preserve your life through cowardly actions.
That gave me more confidence to EP her since Ana doesn’t really show any cowardice in her search for the Divine Source even risking her own life to find it and knew that the Divine Source could possibly kill her but took the chance any way because the possibility of her dying at the hands of the Divine Source is still a better way to go than dying from an illness or getting killed by Trinity.
When the Divine Source gets destroy she was willing to tell Lara who killed her father despite knowing that this would kill her because getting killed by Trinity is still as better way to go than slowly dying from your terminal illness.
Final Verdict?
I’ll leave that to you guys
Edited by G-Editor on Mar 19th 2019 at 3:31:45 AM
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
Yes to the above candidates
"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
And a yes to Dom and Ana.
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Yes to the Tomb Raider candidates.
Edited by Bullman on Mar 19th 2019 at 8:50:10 AM
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
I'm fine with her, as long as they don't kick it begging to be spared, it's not an issue.
Also can someone double check my pending because I'm like 90% sure something's missing/still there when it shouldn't be...?
Abby's write-up is finished, so she can be removed. Axel hasn't been properly EP'd yet (Scragg is still working on it), so he can go too. I don't think anybody's missing, but I'll check for ya real quick.
EDIT: Nobody's missing.
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
Happy to help! 
Edited by DocSharp on Mar 19th 2019 at 10:00:06 AM
Appreciated pal
Goku Black
Ana
@43110 Sound Good.
Also there's something I need to talk about. Remember the time that I EP'd Scott Shelby from Heavy Rain I think I might have ran into some issues with him now. When I first played the game I had only Ethan alone go into the Warehouse where Scott lets himself to be killed having finally succeeded in finding a father who would do anything to save his son. That got me interested in effort posting him I managed to get him approved by a hair.
However I did a second play through this time with Ethan, Madison, and Norman all at the Warehouse, things got become a little more "complicated". Ethan saves his son Shaun, Madison save Ethan and Norman fights Scott Shelby on a conveyer belt to a waste grinder.
When Norman and Scott arrive at the waste grinder Scott falls from the conveyer belt and dangles from a safety rail surrounding the entrance to the bladed grinder. The issue comes when Scott, dangling, begs Norman Jayden to save him from being turned into mintzmeat. Should Norman save Scott, the latter repays him by attacking Norman attempting to send him to the waste grinder only to get fall into the grinder and gets grinned anyway.
I think that last sense might be a bit too scummy to be called magnificent, which is weird and a shame because in the ending with Ethan alone Scott accepts death gracefully if that was the only ending he would have qualified, while in this ending with Ethan, Norman, and Madison not so much, and I'm sure that there are multiple other endings as well.
And I guess that might warrant a cut for Scott Shelby, although I'm happy to hear other people's opinion about the matter if anyone else played the game.
EDIT: Here's a video link to the scene with Ethan, Norman, Madison, and Scott.
Edited by G-Editor on Mar 19th 2019 at 10:16:18 PM
Fine cuttin
Lizzid people!
Well yeah, in an Offical Continuity. Where it's the same charachter who changes thanks to Depending on the Writer. In Negative Continuity however there not quite in the same canon.
Things are really about to get Fun around here