During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
Woagh
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to Bob, Lena and Bernie.
Ultimate Moral Compass
Bernie
Yes to Bernie, got MAJOR Godfather vibes from that effortpost.
One thing I forgot: Bernie knows full well of the Driver's feelings for Irene. He actually goes out of his way to use her as leverage to lure the Driver to him, but he says that nobody knows about her but him. In essence, he goes a bit out of his way to not harm Irene
Happy yes to Bernie!
While I haven't seen it in a while, Drive IS a really good movie. That's a definite to Bernie.
Speaking of Albert Brooks all the more, fun fact: while Russ Cargill is obviously neither trope, the Burger King toy they made of him back in 2007 was based on the original design and looks nothing like the version we see in the movie. Weird. This is something I just discovered too.
Edited by futuremoviewriter on Aug 16th 2022 at 8:19:24 AM
Yes to Bernie.
Lies and Violence!
Bob, Lena, and Bernie.
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
for Bob Diamond, Lena Foster, and Bernie Rose.
to Bob, Lena, and Bernie
Gotta love Jaws!
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
Scrapping Piebald then. Next Rise of the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles candidate, from the episode "Bad Hair Day."
Who Is He?
The unnamed yokai masseur is...a masseur. He's also something of a Mad Scientist who experiments with hair tonic. The masseur also has a partner that’s sentient hair so…technically this is a duo?
You’ll see what I mean.
What Has He Done?
Leo wants to get into the yokai Hirsuté Resort and Spa club. He can't because he has no hair and the club's residents are prejudice against that. So he goes to a crappy resort next door and meets a masseur. After receiving a brutal "massage" from him, he informs Leo that nobody can join the club unless they have hair. When the masseur tells him he has a tonic that can give him hair, Leo gives in to the masseur's offer. After the masseur dumps the tonic on Leo's chrome, blonde hair sprouts from his scalp immediately, thus allowing him passage into the club. Unfortunately, while he's in the club, he keeps falling asleep and waking up to discover various guests are having their precious valuables stolen. Finding some stolen belongings in his hair, Leo suspects he's been sleepwalking, so he checks out the club's security globes (cameras) and sees footage of himself spontaneously passing out, only for his hair to come alive, drag his body to the guests' belongings, and then steal them and hide them in the hair. Leo also sees footage of the masseur hiding in a potted plant laughing evilly and surveying the scene, indicating he set this up the entire time.
Leo's hair comes alive, and both it and Leo get into a hellacious fight where the hair tries to subdue Leo by making his body beat itself up. Leo, fortunately, bursts into a hair salon, where he quickly finds some clippers and shaves the evil hair away from his scalp. He also sees potted plants nearby, and manages to pluck out and subdue the masseur before he can escape. With the two apprehended, Leo goes to the club's security officers and explains how both the masseur and the sentient hair teamed up to steal all the riches from the club.
Fortunately for them, this is Rise of the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. Which means eighty percent of the episodes have to end with a joke/punchline/Brick Joke that was referenced earlier.
Because Leo shaved off his hair...he is now bald. The security officers don't recognize him and get confused. During this, the sentient hair very quickly slicks out its bag and crawls its way onto the masseur's scalp, making it appear like he has hair. The security guards mistake the masseur for being a Battle Nexus Champion. Leo is recognized for the non-member they kicked out earlier. They deduce he's the thief.
They call the cops. Leo's thrown in jail. (He gets out later though).
The guards give the masseur and his hair the stolen loot as a reward.
The masseur and hair high-five each other and get away with everything.
Is He Charming? Charismatic? Magnificent?
I guess. The masseur comes off as being a seemingly new and very nice employee of a crummy spa resort across the street—which, he is technically. It just so happens he experiments with potions and tonics in his spare time. So after Leo comes to the resort and the masseur explains that he needs hair, he offers to give Leo some. And since Leo is determined to get in the club (even though everyone there is stuck up), he gives in. While the hair is going around stealing items, the masseur is just hiding in plain sight in pots/vases. And after Leo finds out what the hair is doing, the hair tries to beat the crap out of Leo before he informs the authorities. Even after they fail, the hair quickly scurries onto the masseur's head, because it knows the guards won't suspect the masseur if he has hair but Leo doesn't.
And they don't.
Is He a Bastard? Too Much of a Bastard?
He's a thief who took advantage of Leo, drenching him in a potion that made him "sleepwalk" when in reality it made him grow sentient hair so it could steal from other Yokai. And when the hair found out, they got into a fight until Leo cut it all off and later found and apprehended the masseur. And by the end of the episode, both of them succeed in framing Leo for stealing all the valuables, resulting in him going to prison while they get away with everything they stole.
He doesn't try to kill anyone, so. Maybe that's not enough.
Final Verdict?
Don't know. I'll let you guys decide.
Miraculous will handle another candidate in the future. I'm still mulling over another duo. But it's gonna be some days before either of us come back to this.
Edited by Tyk5919 on Aug 16th 2022 at 12:25:36 PM
I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
Being a thief in my mind is more than bad enough, especially for the tone. Masseur and the hair.
Yes to that duo.
Ultimate Moral Compass
The masseur and his living hair companion
Woagh
to the Masseur and the Hair.
for the Dead King, Qjtzel and Dark-Eye, Reece, Number 2, Edwards Three Sparks, the Allosaurus, Belloc, Whisk, Garrity, Rafaam, Bob and Lena, Bernie, the Masseur... and his hair.
![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
for Jaffar, Plagg, and Piebald.
Goku Black
Bob and Lena, Bernie and the Massuer
The Controversial Guy
Bob, Bernie, Masseur and the hair.
Edited by CrystallicWolf108 on Aug 17th 2022 at 11:48:59 AM
The masseur and his equally brilliant… hair. Loving this shit guys!
Here are the Age of Reptiles writeups:
- The Deinonychus leader Quetzal and her mate Dark Eye, appearing in the story Tribal Warfare, are the most cunning members of their pack. Introduced setting up an ambush to kill a herbivorous dinosaur many times her size, Quetzal is driven away from her kill by the T-Rex Blue Back. Desiring revenge for this and for Blue Back’s killings of her fellow pack members, whom she and Dark Eye view as family, Quetzal successfully steals T-Rex eggs, both in retribution and to eat. When the T-Rex leader Long Jaw orders an attack that causes the death of one of Quetzal’s loyalest hunters, Dark Eye lures Long Jaw’s son into a trap, where the pack ambush and kill him. Despite her care for her fellow pack members, Quetzal doesn’t hesitate to kill any who challenge her position as pack leader, as she does to the Deinonychus One Claw when the latter tries to usurp her. When the pack is ambushed by the T-Rexes, Quetzal and Dark Eye both go down fighting, with Dark Eye attempting to avenge Quetzal when she’s killed in his last moments.
- An unnamed Allosaurus is the protagonist of the story The Hunt. The Allosaurus seeks vengeance on a pack of ceratosaurs that killed his mother, displaying his first signs of tactical knowledge as an adolescent by luring the pack into a trap, then attempting to kill them by triggering a rockslide. As an adult, the Allosaurus comes across the pack again and proceeds to hunt them and kill them one by one, taking one out in a surprise attack by using the carcasses left behind by a tidal wave as cover, and countering their ability to change the colour of their skins by luring them into shallow water. Upon learning that the last remaining ceratosaur is a mother, the Allosaurus abandons his hunt, not wanting the ceratosaur’s babies to grow up motherless like him.
Lies and Violence!
Masseur and his hair.
What's the work?
League of Legends is a video game I'm only invested in because Arcane is really, really good. Other than that, my knowledge of the franchise before starting this was limited to three comics and furiously skimming character pages after, again, getting hooked on Arcane. My biggest takeaways were that there are a fuck-ton of reboots and a lot of characters, leaving a lot to look through for these threads. Lighty and Scraggle have already covered the franchise for CM, and mir and I are joining in for MB, so let's get the ball rolling.
Quick background notes: one of the main players in the setting is Noxus, a self-described "Brutal Expansionist Empire." Gee, I wonder if they're the bad guys.
...Okay, technically every faction sucks in their own unique way, but a higher volume of bad guys come from Noxus. Whatever, moving on.
Noxus had been up to some particularly extreme expansionism even by their standards back before the current ruler took charge, going to war with the nearby nation of Ionia, a peaceful and spiritual land home to not only humans but also part-spirit vastaya. The invasion ultimately failed, but the sudden introduction to violence and war sparked an irrevocable bloodlust in the once peaceful population. Fortunately (or maybe not), some managed to prosper under these conditions.
Who is Sett?
The son of a Noxian and a vastaya, Sett was frequently ridiculed throughout his childhood, finding no acceptance from either side of his heritage. Not helping matters was how his father, a fighter in illegal pit matches brought to Ionia by the Noxians, eventually abandoned him and his mother to find fame abroad. Sett joined the pit fights at a young age in the hopes that he would one day be able to face his father in the ring, but to the surprise of everyone turned out to be a prodigy—while he lacked formal martial arts training, he more than made up for it in sheer ferocity, leaving a trail of broken challengers in his wake as he won mountains of prize money and became the undefeated "King of the Pit."
Eventually getting tired of working under someone else, Sett locked himself in a room with the pit's promoters and beat the ever-loving shit out of them until they agreed to let him take charge. With his title and position secured, he proceeded to capitalize on the newfound bloodlust of the Ionians after the war with Noxus to transform the paltry fighting ring business into a full-fledged criminal empire, using his absurd wealth to support his loving mother—kept in the dark about his illegal activities—while personally enforcing his authority whenever challenged, once even postponing a death match with an upstart usurper just so he could sell more tickets for what's essentially a light workout for him.
Any mitigating factors?
He's ultimately a minor character compared to most other champions, but Sett still stands out and covers all the bases. He started out from nothing to take over the ring and expand it into a massive criminal enterprise, encouraging death and violence in his matches to drag in massive profits that are further amplified thanks to his eye for business. He's pretty charismatic, and his love for his mother further makes him stand out as a generally fun and likeable character despite his questionable career choice.
- Sett, the Boss, real name Settrigh, is a brutal mobster who began his career as a young challenger in Ionia's fighting pits. Eventually overthrowing the pits' promoters after accruing a reputation of unstoppable ferocity, Sett took advantage of Ionia's growing bloodlust in the wake of the war with Noxus to expand his operations into a criminal empire, enriching himself beyond his wildest dreams to support his loving mother and personally answering any challenge to his authority to ruthlessly secure his hold over the underworld.
Yes to Sett. This game's gotta be a goldmine. Too many characters not to be.
Edited by Riley1sCool on Aug 17th 2022 at 7:35:39 AM
A question for Final Fantasy XIV players - are there any factors I'm overlooking that would disqualify Fandaniel as a candidate? I know there are some "mitigating factors" regarding his motivations and if he can be said to be acting entirely on his own volition, but I don't think they'd be an issue when explained.
Yes to Bernie.