During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Nightburn, Captain, Sarov, Piccolo, Mars, Duo and Aspyce
for Nightburn, the Captain, Sarov, Piccolo, Jr., Mars, Duo, and Aspyce.
Eh...I dunno. Piccolo Jr lets his sense of pride get the better of him a good amount of the time (not as much as Vegeta, but still) or just doesn't think things through.
He severely underestimated Frieza when he told Gohan and Krillin to wish him to Namek, risking the entire venture to Namek pointless (and he had to be convinced by Nail to fuse with him to even stand a chance against Frieza's second form. Had Piccolo went without fusing as he initially planned, he'd have been hopelessly massacred)
He, along with Goku and Vegeta, insisted on letting Gero have time to build the Androids for the sake of a challenging fight rather than Bulma's idea of tracking down Gero and killing him before the Androids could attack, which proved to be monumentally bone headed.
He completely forgets about how fighting 17 would be a massive signal for Cell to track down the Androids due to Cell being able to sense his energy. (While yes, the Androids did come for a fight, Piccolo is explicitly shocked at Cell's arrival, showing that it didn't cross his mind that he would be signaling Cell)
And it doesn't help how, while he's definitely tactical, a lot of the time it just doesn't matter in the long run. His plan to defeat Nappa via the tail fails horribly due to Nappa and Vegeta having trained their tails. His Hellzone Grenade move, while awesome, amounts to nothing against Android 17 due to 17's energy barrier. And his strategy against Frost fails due to Frost's poison needles. Granted, he couldn't really have known these things, but when his moments of cunning repeatedly fail without much effort from his opponent, I just can't see him measuring up to the other MBs from Dragon Ball we have
And it doesn't help that he gets played like a fiddle a fair amount of the time. Cell, Super Buu, Frost, and even some nameless tiny alien in the Tournament of Power. And with a few exceptions like his first fight with Cell, he rarely ever bounces back when he gets outsmarted.
I love Piccolo. But his moments of cunning scarcely ever contribute anything, and he gets Out-Gambitted or holds the Idiot Ball a tad bit too much for me.
Edited by Awesomekid42 on May 21st 2022 at 11:55:37 AM
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
He didn't think he was stronger than Frieza, he just wanted to stop being useless and help his people.
There was a more pragmatic reason why Piccolo did that. As Krillin explained that the core of their team was based on Enemy Mine / Fire-Forged Friendship when facing a common enemy together, which they really needed at that point due to Vegeta still be a Wild Card. In some translations, Vegeta actually threatened to kill Bulma if she tried to deactivate the Androids first. Plus, there's the reoccurring theme that even if they stop one threat, another stronger threat will just emerge, so it's actually sound logic for all of them to train to get stronger to always be prepared for the future.
He was desperate to take out 17 as quickly as possible to prevent Cell from becoming perfect, which is why he went all out. He didn't anticipate he was dead-equal to 17 and by the time he found out he was fully focused on the battle, which is also the reason why he didn't sense Cell coming.
He does have moments of cunning that do help the plot though. He did manage to coordinate with Krillin to land hits on Nappa, which could have hurt Nappa if Gohan hadn't chickened out. He had the idea to borrow Krillin and Gohan's energy which allowed him to distract Frieza while Goku was charging the Spirit Bomb. He successfully fooled Gero into thinking he had knocked him out which only ended up unnecessary due to Vegeta showing up. He also hid his true power from Gero while he was being drained, which completely catches Gero off-guard when Piccolo proceeds to wreck him. And of course, he tricked Buu and bought more time for Goten and Trunks in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber.
His win-lose cunning ratio is fairly balanced imo
Edited by Snowy66 on May 19th 2022 at 2:17:23 AM
I will add that quite honestly I don't believe it's fair to hold "Piccolo's plans fail in the long run" against him. Ginyu from the Manga, while he did trick Goku, only managed to get into a body just couldn't control and gets tricked into turning into a frog. While it was before he could qualify and he did by tricking Tagoma, he still pretty much stood no chance against Gohan as soon as he turned Super Saiyan. Then showed up Vegeta and one-shotted him. That makes him arguably less successful than Piccolo, and he was approved.
Magnificent Bastards, while competent, are usually expected to lose when they're a villain or a side character up against the main antagonist. All they really need to do is to prove competent enough to affect the plot...which Piccolo certainly does. Among the examples Snowy didn't bring, Vegeta using up some energy to replace the moon Piccolo had the foresight to destroy certainly played a role in his loss, for it allowed Gohan (whom Piccolo trained) to put up a fight long enough to throw for Krillin the Genki-Dama and weaken him even more.
Edited by MiraiYuji on May 19th 2022 at 11:37:48 AM
The MILF Virus
- Wild ARMs 5:
- Nightburn Ackland is the dashing leader of the Golem Hunters Guild and human icon who's secretly in league with the Veruni. After losing his Veruni lover to a disease and learning that her race is doom to extinction unless drastic measures, Nightburn aligned with the Veruni as a false hero to his race, using his fame and charisma to lure other humans as part of the Veruni's many system to keep both sides in check. Running the entertainment and mine industry where he tricked many humans into slavery, Nightburn hid his facade brilliantly for years while secretly getting closer in solving the Veruni dilemma until encountered Dean. After being defeated by him and impress by his resolve, Nightburn switch sides, setting up Dean to succeed in what he failed, unite the two race, before seemingly sacrifing himself for him before re-emerging to face the Veruni radicals as a genuine hero.
- Duogrammaton "Duo" is a Veruni entertainment mogul who's floozy facade hides a cunning reporter fighting for the truth. In charge of Liela Belle and managing Nightburn's image, when he realize that Avril was the Ice Queen, he used his status to lure her group into a fake audition where he secretly studied her in the guise of just mere amusement. Hating how his race disregard humans and censor the truth, Duo pretended to comply with his race's demand only to expose their whole system behind their back, secretly recording and revealing Nightburn and the Veruni's fraudalence to start a revolution for humans to fight back, before guiding the group to Johnny Appleseed so they can show the truth of the conflict plaguing both races.
Yes to Sarov, Piccolo, Mars, Duo and Aspyce.
Showtime!
to Mars and Aspyce
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Yes to Piccolo Jr., Mars, Duo and Aspyce.
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
The Work
Vikram and Betaal comes from Hindu Mythology. While it acts as a framing device for a series of stories, it has it's own plot, as detailed below. The candidate is Betaal (See here. His name is spelt in many ways, but I'm sticking with "Betaal" for simplicity)
The Work
Vikram is a king who had been hired by a sorcerer to capture a celestial spirit called Betaal, who lives in a corpse that hangs from a tree. Capturing Betaal is easy - the hard part is keeping him.
Each time Vikram captures Betaal, it tells a story that ends with a riddle. Vikram has two options:
- If he stays quiet, then his head will explode.
- If he talks, Betaal returns to his tree and Vikram needs to retrieve him
Betaal tells Vikram 24 stories - 24 times Vikram answers, and 24 times Vetaal returns to his tree. Vikram is unable to answer the 25th question, so Betaal allows Vikram to take him to the sorcerer.
On their way, Betaal reveals his backstory - The sorcerer had blessed his parents with twins, on the condition that he taught both of them. While Betaal was taught as much as possible, he was also ill-treated. While his brother was to be returned to his parents, Betaal was due to be sacrificed so that the sorcerer could become immortal and almighty. Betaal also tells Vikram that the sorcerer intends to behead him, which would give him Betaal's powers.
Betaal gives Vikram advice on how to defeat the sorcerer, namely tricking the sorcerer himself into bowing and beheading him while he is distracted. This works, and Betaal offers Vikram a boon - Vikram asks Betaal to cleanse the sorcerers soul, and requests that Betaal should come to the king's aid when needed, which he happily complies with.
Magnificence
Betaal is a smart and affable being, telling King Vikram stories as the latter carries him on his back. When Vikram correctly answers a question, Betaal commends him, but tells him that because he spoke, he must return to his tree.
He also tells Vikram that the sorcerer intends to murder him, and comes up with the plan that not only saves him, but lets the sorcerer face Laser-Guided Karma.
Bastardry
He gives Vikram an incredibly hard time during his quest. He threatens to blow up his head if he remains quiet, but he also returns to his tree when Vikram answers a question that Betaal himself asked. It takes Vikram 25 attempts to actually succeed in catching him, and only because Betaal let him. That being said, Betaal gives him a heads up that his life is in danger, and also offers the king a boon after the sorcerer is killed
Edited by magnumtropus on May 19th 2022 at 3:45:47 PM
Piccolo explicitly says that he'll beat Freeza back on King Kai's planet. It wasn't just about taking a stand, he legit thought he was stronger than Freeza
Wasn't that only Krillin's reason though? IIRC, Piccolo didn't mention any pragmatic reason.
Again though, he didn't think once about how the fight would signal Cell to his and 17's location. Even Cell mocked him for that.
I guess fair enough about the ratio being balanced out though.
@Mirai
It wasn't simply for failing in the long run. It's due to how scarcely his cunning ever actually hinders his opponents. Ginyu failed in the long run, but he still nearly killed Goku, and nearly defeated the Z-Fighters as Tagoma, so that's not quite the best comparison.
What about nearly killing Goku even back when he didn't qualify? Or contributing to Vegeta's defeat? What about the way he bought time for Gotenks allowing him to actually nearly kill Super Buu? He would've also definitely defeated Frost had the latter not resorted to cheating.
"Barely hinder" is quite an overstatement. One also has to remember Piccolo legitimately had Gero and Cell on the ropes, with the former only getting out of this thanks to Bulma picking up the Idiot Ball.
Edited by MiraiYuji on May 19th 2022 at 5:31:43 PM
I'll give you nearly killing Goku.
I feel like that's kinda a stretch with Vegeta, but eh. I'll give that too.
The plan with Gotenks failed horribly. Even as SS3, any injuries Gotenks gave Buu healed immediately, and then Buu tricks Piccolo and Gotenks into being absorbed by him, which led to Gohan being dominated.
Frost is one of the examples I used of opponents having no problems countering Piccolo's tactics. As soon as Piccolo wrapped his arm around Frost, Frost had Piccolo right where he wanted him.
I'll admit that the ratio is more balanced than I thought. Still, the aforementioned multiple moments where he doesn't think things through for major moments, and how he rarely gets to bounce back after being outplayed, make me too hesitant.
Edited by Awesomekid42 on May 19th 2022 at 11:47:08 AM
The Draftsman of Doom
Not sure on Betaal.
Also, since this and the Complete Monster thread have had recurring problems with Ban-Evaders, I am thinking of linking to Ban-Evader Example Rewrites in the Magnificent Bastard Sandboxes. The candidate re-evaluation section is at the bottom of the page at the moment.
I know we have MB To Do Lists for works to look into in general, but I would like to use the sandbox in question to make note of when a candidate is proposed by a ban-evader.
Think of it as a back burner where we can put the candidates until someone adds them to their to-do list.
Feels good, don't it?
Abstain on Betaal, pending more arguments. Just not sure if he does enough
@Awesome, some of those might be due to differences in dubs.
But as for the Piccolo inadvertently summoning Cell thing. What other option did Piccolo have? 17 wanted to kill Goku and stated if Piccolo didn't tell him where he was then he'd kill Piccolo and/or his friends too. Combined with Cell's bodycount hitting over 100,000, Piccolo saw this as the only option to keep Cell from being complete. And if he fought against 17 at anything less than 100% then he'd have no chance of winning.
If the situation was Cell manipulated or waited for Piccolo to use fullpower as a beacon, then I'd say it was more of a black mark against him. But in this instance, I wouldn't really say it was Cell outplaying him and more a string of unfortunate circumstances that caused Piccolo to do something out of desperation.
Edited by Snowy66 on May 19th 2022 at 12:53:36 PM
Trying to stall them like he did with Super Buu or sending them in the wrong direction would have worked. Even then, it's not simply the fact that he did it that's a red flag for me. It's how Piccolo never once thought of the risk of Cell being signaled by their fight until it was too late. If Piccolo said something like needing to end this quick before Cell could find out where they were from their energy, that'd be one thing. But he explicitly admits it that he was so caught up in the fight with 17 that he didn't realize that Cell would head their way.
Edited by Awesomekid42 on May 19th 2022 at 4:12:32 AM
If he stalled them at even half his power that could have attracted Cell too. And I don't think 16 would fall for sending them in another direction since he knows everything about Goku.
Well I think Piccolo was hoping he could have ended the fight in a short time frame, before Cell could cross the Earth. It's kind of the same idea as Vegeta telling Krillin to destroy a Namekian Dragon Ball to prevent Frieza from getting his wish, it's one last act of desperation to keep the eneny from winning even if it costs them a lot.
iirc what he said was he didn't sense Cell approaching, not that he had no clue Cell would show up at all.
Edited by Snowy66 on May 19th 2022 at 1:30:49 AM
Showtime!
to Betaal, I'd say
Well it seems like Paola and Mars are both doing well so its time to do my write-ups for them
- Assassin's Creed II: Paola is a cunning woman whose wits helped her survived on the streets for 20 years until she became a friend to the Auditore family after Giovanni Auditore helped her get off a criminal charge of murdering a city guard. She would then become the madame of the Florentine brothel, La Rosa Colta, rescuing women on the streets and providing them a home, while using them to swindle men of their money. When Giovanni and two of his sons were executed by Uberto Alberti, Paola would keep Giovanni's wife and daughter safe in her brothel while teaching Giovanni's remaining son, Ezio, how to pick-pocket, blend in within crowds, kill people discreetly, and lower his notoriety, before arranging Ezio to assassinate Alberti. Paola would help Ezio again during the Bonfire of Vanities where she and La Volpe would rally the citizens of Florence against Girolamo Savonarola as Ezio assassinates his lieutenants, leading to Savonarola being overthrown while the citizens take back their city.
- Bob's Burgers: "Presto Tina-O": Mars Sazerac is a charming magician who takes advantage of Bob Belcher's 50% discount by inviting his friends to Bob's restaurants and performing magic tricks for them. When Bob bans Sazerac from his restaurant, the magician puts Bob's name in his "Enemies of Magic" book, cursing Bob into having to endure magic-related mishaps in his restaurant. Sazerac would also anticipate Bob's attempt to get his name of his book, allowing Bob's daughter, Louise, to steal his book, where he writes Bob a note saying that he farted on the salami Bob had licked on.
Busy day! Imma get back to y'all!
Edit: Uhhhhhh... is it absolutely necessary we overlook a character whose last gambit is farting on deli meat? This feels... kinda classless for an MB tbh. If others are cool with it or think it was just a faked note to gross out Bob sure but, ugggh.
Edit upon an edit: And now I'm remembering Tyler Durden got a joke about jacking off in French onion soup. Probably fine, just something that caught my eye lol
Edited by 43110 on May 19th 2022 at 4:48:15 AM
Lizzid people!
Yeah, that's my problem with Mars. If that was not added in the episode, yeah, maybe. Even if it was not actually shown onscreen, it is still classless/unbecoming of a MB.
I guess where I pause is "two second joke in a 2-hour movie" vs. "Exactly what you'd expect of a Bob's Burgers joke". Tbh it's more tempo than anything that concerns me... like when we had a bunch of EPs for South Park candidates who only really counted on paper.
I'll give a no to Mars, having seen the episode. Sure he's not ACTUALLY seen farting on it, but the fact he outright admits it to gross Bob out when we've DQ'd south park candidates for less, not feeling him. The difference between Bob's Burgers and something like The Simpsons or Venture Bros is tone. If you can see a fart joke coming a mile away in Bob's Burgers whereas it's far more subtle in Simpsons or Venture Bros. Yeah... it's too undignified and classless. Unfortunately I feel Bob's Burgers is like Beavis and Butthead where it will never have a candidate due to the tone. Yes to Aspyce and Duo though.
Edited by Klavice on May 19th 2022 at 2:59:56 AM
Well it's not like the fart is undignified. Plus has there really never been an MB who has farted before? Such a small thing I think can be overlooked,![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]")
to Mars
Edited by Snowy66 on May 18th 2022 at 11:36:40 AM