During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Oh, that suddenly makes a lot of sense.
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
with Juan.
Edited by HighfalutinQuelea on Oct 22nd 2021 at 3:58:48 AM
Shin Megami Tensei IV
![[awesome]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/minis/award_star_gold_3.png "[awesome]"){kind=small}
Yes to Cortez.
I was going to say Lisbeth from the The Girl With The Dragon Tattoo, but the film incarnation of her is not actually listed and that's where I actually remember seeing the golden dildo scene. I'm not sure if it's similar in the books where she's listed so she might legit not be as bad as in the film in that regard.
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
The wifi here sucks
the dildo thing is in the books, I remember it being a point of contention in the EP.
Hope your prepared for an unforgettable luncheon
Prince Kilmonger, Slaughter, Juan
Goku Black
Juan
Erik, Mischief, Slaughter and Juan
Keep Megatron
The Draftsman of Doom
Yes to Cortez.
Rawr.
Right. My day has started off kind of crap, so I’ll just get this out of the way.
What is the work?
A Song of Ice and Fire is the epic fantasy series by GRRM, who still hasn’t finished Winds of Winter.
I’m sure we all the know the setting; Westeros is made of the Seven Kingdoms, Dorne, and the Crownlands, and there’s a war going on between Five Kings for control of the Iron Throne/two kingdoms want independence.
During all this, young Arya Stark vanishes, going missing from everyone. In truth she’s been picked up by Yoren of the Night’s Watch while he was picking recruits. Among the recruits from the Dungeon, he comes across three criminals... one of whom is our candidate today.
Who is our candidate and what have they done?
Jaqen H'ger is seemingly a man from Lorathi, locked in chains by Yoren alongside the vicious Rorge and Biter, and of the three? The most dangerous. Because Jaqen H'ger is just a name used by a Faceless Man.
When Yoren and his company are attacked by Lannister raiders, Jaqen and his companions are freed from death thanks to Arya, after which they join up with the Lannister garrison at Harrenhal. But Jaqen considers Arya to have taken three lives from the Red God, and thus, owes him three deaths. All she has to do is say a name and Jaqen? He’ll kill them.
So Arya first tells Jaqen to kill Chiswyck, one of the Mountain’s Men who had bragged about helping gang rape a girl. Jaqen? Well, Chiswyck ends up falling from the ramparts with people attributing it to the ghost of Harrenhal. Then Arya gets tired of Weese’s abuse and whispers his name to Jaqen. Weese ends up having his throat torn out by a dog he’d raised from a pup.
Now with one name left, Jaqen confronts Arya, revealing he knows who she really is. He urges her to give her any man’s name, promising that no matter how long it takes he’ll kill them, even if it’s his own father, even suggesting she say Joffrey’s name... then Arya whispers Jaqen’s name. Actually caught off guard, Jaqen at first asks her to unsay his name, but figures out that Arya wants to free several Northmen kept prisoner in Harrenhal. And so he agrees. Roping Rorge and Biter into his scheme, Jaqen takes hot broth down to the guards and doses them in it, killing the only one to draw his sword with ease before wiping his blood onto Arya’s shirt, making sure she knows the part she played in his death.
With the prisoners freed, it turns out that the sellsword company the Brave Companions were planning to turn over to King Robb Stark, and Jaqen? He just inserted himself into the plan. As Harrenhal is taken, Jaqen gently reprimands Arya when she asks if she can have the third death back, gives her a coin and instructions to find him Braavos, then reveals Jaqen has to die now... at which point he changes his own face in front of her, then departs into the night.
While unconfirmed, a man baring a striking resemblance to Jaqen’s new face appear in Oldtown, where he kills a novice maester and takes his place, working toward some unknown goal.
Is Jaqen magnificent?
For a side character? Jaqen is remarkably efficient at what he does. He pulls off two assassinations with such ease and skill only Arya knows he did it, and that’s because she told him to. Jaqen handles himself with a courteous manner, polite to everyone around him, while also having this strangely enigmatic air of mystery. Worth noting the only time he’s caught off guard and truly distraught is when Arya whispers his own name for the third death, but ultimately rolls with this, helps free the Northman prisoners to take Harrenhal, and even somewhat turns it to his advantage by setting Arya on the path to become a Faceless Man herself. He absolutely makes it here.
Is he a bastard?
Yup. Jaqen doesn’t do anything too awful, but he was in the cells for a reason, and notably? It’s implied Rorge is terrified of him for some reason. Jaqen kills at least three people, and pointedly ensures Arya knows the part she played in their deaths. Despite this, Jaqen is actually not that bad a guy. He’s got a clear code of some kind, and honestly seems to respect and is fond of Arya after she manages to corner him with the third death. Not to mention he sets her on the path to become a Faceless Man. So no issues here.
Conclusion?
Ultimately, Jaqen’s a fairly easy keeper. While his goals are unknown, he has a certain flair most other characters lack and his style is creepy and awesome to behold. He handily makes it.
He never sleeps. He says he will never die.
Goku Black
Sure
Jaqen
Would his show version count? (I didn't watch and kinda don't want to after what I heard).
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
I think so. Jaqen becomes Arya’s mentor in the Faceless Men in the show, which he is not in the books. Probably enough difference, but I have no intention of going back to the show.
He never sleeps. He says he will never die.
Sure to Jaqen, doesn't strike me as being one we'll have to worry about anything pressing for in terms of future cutting lest Martin throws a curveball, good catch!
A happy yes to Juan as well! Great job man and glad to see an MB to match all the success it brought on CM!
Goku Black
Yup when I mean if winds ever comes out.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Sure to book Jaqen.
Jaqen's body count is slightly higher in the show: The Tickler (Neck Snap to the point his head is twisted backwards), Amory Lorch (shot with a poisoned dart), three Lannister soldiers, and one other bloke in Season 6 whose body he's cleaning in "Blood of my Blood". That's 6.
Always got a chuckle with Lorch's death where Jaqen practically rolls his eyes when Arya says that Lorch has to die now.
Edited by k410ren on Oct 22nd 2021 at 10:00:20 AM
"I'll show you the Dark Side." CM actors and kills
Here’s a quote for Jaqen.
“Speak the name, and death will come. On the morrow, at the turn of the moon, a year from this day, it will come. A man does not fly like a bird, but one foot moves and then another and one day a man is there, and a king dies.”
He never sleeps. He says he will never die.
Yes to Mischief, another Erik, Juan, and Jaqen.
Juan, Jaqen.
Why stop with Jose? What about Jason, Jordan, Jacob and Jackson?!
Showtime!
MIGTB got back to me in PMs when I asked if he was doing No Time to Die over here. He said he wasn't, so it's up for grabs to whoever wants it. Lighty or whoever else is ready will probably do it.
MIGTB doesn't need my permission to reiterate himself that he's not doing it though if need be.
Edited by futuremoviewriter on Oct 22nd 2021 at 10:10:43 AM
to Juan and Jaque
V
Definitely Juan Cortez, sounds like a cool guy
Sup everyone!
So I've reserved the position for holding the discussion of No Time To Die on the Complete Monster thread, but I will not do that here. So if anyone wants to reserve the position for that discussion on the MB thread, feel free to do so!
Good luck
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
nice
Edited by MenInGreyToBlak on Oct 22nd 2021 at 7:36:29 PM
I'll discuss Safin later
The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo/Millennium trilogy is where Lisbeth hails from.
Alright, talked about this one on CM, and while it's not as plentiful here, we've still got a solid character to discuss:
What's the work?
Far Cry 6 is the latest game in the popular game franchise Far Cry. In this latest entry, player character Dani Rojas finds themself trapped on the Cuban-styled island country of Yara, where dictator Antón Castillo (played by my boy Giancarlo Esposito) reigns supreme and trafficks a powerful breed of tobacco called "Viviro" that is capable of curing cancer, putting Yara on the map.
Unfortunately, Antón being a, uh, dictator means plenty of suffering for all of Yara—notably in the form of the discriminated "Fake Yarans" by the arrogant upper class "True Yarans"—and it's up to Dani to team up with a rebel group calls the Libertad, convince fellow splinter cell rebellions to ally with them, and take down the Castillo regime once and for all.
Antón himself doesn't count... I'd have loved to get a Giancarlo, but he's way, way too evil and cruel, and as the game goes on he grows more and more unstable and psychotic until his idea of "saving" his son Diego from the rebels out to capture them both is to shoot his kid and kill himself when he's beaten.
And indeed, none of the rest of Castillo's regime comes close. They're either sadistic wackjobs like Reyes and José, incompetent assholes like Benítez and José, or racist scum like Maria, McKay or José.
The people fighting against Castillo, though...
Who is Juan Cortez? What makes him a candidate?
A charmingly alcoholic rebel fighter who is also working as an operative and ally of the CIA, Juan serves as one of Dani's two mentor figures alongside Clara throughout the game. Having a trained killer crocodile named Guapo and his own "book on guerilla warfare" that he quotes throughout the game (and indeed the game uses as actual tips for the player lol), Juan is one of Dani's most important allies, supplying them with advice and missions throughout the game...as well as letting them borrow Guapo to wreck shit.
Throughout the story, Juan sends Dani on various missions and supplies them with strategies to destabilize Castillo's regime, Juan basically the secondary leader of the entire resistance movement Libertad behind Clara....but as he himself says, unlike Clara, Juan is willing to get his hands dirty. He secretly supplies the CIA with side shipments of Viviro and the nasty chemical used to make it, PG-240, and convinces Dani it's worth it for the intel and funds the CIA supplies in turn...Juan also is more than willing to strike a deal with the horrid businessman Sean McKay, having Dani wreck his enterprise then extort a fortune out of McKay in exchange for letting him leave Yara alive.
When Clara is kidnapped by Antón, Dani goes to a meeting with Antón while Juan spies on them with a sniper scope...at the meeting, Antón and his teen son Diego are present with a hostage Clara, and when Juan's initial plan to take out Antón fails? He tries to shoot Diego dead, the boy only saved by Dani...when Dani confronts Juan over trying to kill a kid and gets physical, Juan knocks Dani flat on their ass, chastising them for their naivety in believing that Diego will ever amount to anything but either dead alongside Antón, or become a new dictator himself.
After Clara is killed, Juan continues to supply Dani with support, tactics and advice throughout the game, ultimately setting them up to become the new leader of Libertad and helping them orchestrate the ultimate takedown of Antón's regime...and when Antón commits a murder-suicide of Diego alongside himself, Juan cheerfully congratulates a horrified Dani on the "victory" and celebrates with the rest of the notable characters on taking down the Castillo dictatorship, Juan nonetheless assuring all that the battle for true freedom for Yara is far from over...
Is Juan magnificent?
Definitely, he's a swaggering, hilarious guy who drinks his days away while nonetheless being an invaluable tactician and guerilla, using his "book" on it to keep Dani and the player both appraised of strategies, weapons and all sorts of methods in fighting the dictatorship. He ultimately plays the largest role besides Dani themselves in dismantling and taking down Castillo, and ends the game totally victorious while continuing to be involved in shady dealings of his own.
Is he a bastard?
Yep, Juan is the "bad" guerilla to Clara's "good"...both are out to save Yara from Antón, but Juan is a cynical, double-dealing person who makes deals with horrible criminals for cash, supplies the CIA with not good shit, and ultimately is out to kill Diego despite him being a kid just wrapped up in his father's awful delusions of grandeur...but Juan ultimately does have his own twistedly cynical point that Diego is likely either doomed to die at rebel hands anyway, or to continue his father's work, and Juan is proven right to a point when Antón himself is so scared of leaving Diego at the mercy of rebels that he kills the kid.
Final Verdict?
Keeper
Tonight I dine on monkey soup.