During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
Yup! Knew that one would be coming.
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to Baal, Caldal and Bain.
Hey could Mephisto and Diablo also make the cut given that they are said to be more intelligent than Baal, even if the latter is a Complete Monster?
Edit: forget I ever asked
Edited by G-Editor on Oct 18th 2021 at 6:36:13 AM
Cecily.
G please stop obsessing over CM crossovers. Baal might be controversial, but I think he's probably gonna go up at this point. What lighty has said is that both of the other demon lords gleefully engage in torture in addition to mass slaughter. That isn't magnificent, that's being a monstrous dick.
Edited by jjjj2 on Oct 18th 2021 at 12:23:42 PM
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
G, I've been emphasizing how unbelievably sadistic those two are the entire time. The Lord of Terror who in my Effortpost takes up residence in a little boy's mind and proceeds to torture him for months as he drinks in his terror? The guy who turns a righteous church into a corrupt religion of evil an has their their leader carved apart like a Thanksgiving turkey when he won't give in, who has an enemy given to eternal torture for slighting him?
What do you think, G? I don't care how intelligent they are, the two of them are far too vile for this.
Edited by Lightysnake on Oct 18th 2021 at 9:29:06 AM
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Please don't make this the new South Park... I think the difference between a good CM candidate like Hans or Dudley and a bad one like Baal's brothers should be fairly obvious.
As Lighty and I literally discussed this last night: you could technically say Rose meets all the points: smart, manipulative, can improvise and even takes her death pretty well all things considered. Does there maybe seem a problem with saying "This girl's really good at tricking black people into being mind raped into submission for wealthy old people"?
Edited by 43110 on Oct 18th 2021 at 1:06:04 PM
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Anyways here is Cora's write up.
- Cora Mills, aka the Queen of Hearts, Regina and Zelena's mother, was once a poor girl who, after a life of hardship, was taught magic by Rumpelstiltskin and fell in love with him before choosing power over him. Wanting Regina to have the life she never had, Cora poisoned her old rival Queen Eva before making Snow White's horse go wild so Regina could save her. Later manipulating Snow into telling her that Regina is planning to run away, Cora kills Regina's love, Daniel. Imprisoned in Wonderland, Cora spends the next years plotting to reunite with her daughter and later protects herself, Hook, and a few others from the curse, before taking over the refugees by pretending to be Lancelot. Upon making it to Storybrook, Cora comes up with a plan to frame Regina for the murder of Archie, before convincing her to join her. Planning to and nearly succeeding in killing Rumpelstiltskin, Cora eventually dies in Regina's arms, telling her that she would have been enough. Encountering the heroes in the Underworld, Cora tries to convince Regina to go home before being imprisoned by Hades. Managing to use her cunning and Hook's hook to escape, Cora makes amends with her daughters before ascending to Olympus.
@43 Yeah, even without the fact that she's targeting Black people, I'd still have a big problem with Rose counting for MB. You clearly weren't saying she counts as MB though.
Late on this, but based on the EP, to Cora.
Edited by futuremoviewriter on Oct 18th 2021 at 10:12:51 AM
Yeah, the only reason I'm considering Baal is he's really on the cusp on how bad you can be. HE's just the lesser evil to his truly nightmarish bros in deeds, his methods are pretty generic in how a demon operates and his ultimate goal is "corrupt the Worldstone and rule the world" by the end....which is a far cry from his old days of "weeee, combat forever!"
Self-Declared King of Everything
This is still bothering me. From the Dresden Files MB page:
- "Lash" or the Shadow of Lashciel is a beautiful spirit of intellect created from Harry Dresden making contact with the coin of the Fallen Angel Lachsiel. Lash tempts Harry with power and abilities as well as kind words into taking up the coin and joining her master. Lash also gains a genuine affection for Harry and helps him out by concocting ingenious methods to defeat his various foes. She also helps him deduce various facts about the mysteries he's investigating. Lash eventually starts to become more human thanks to Harry and helps against an Outsider empowered enemy before giving her life to save Harry.
Should be:
- "Lash" or the Shadow of Lasciel is a beautiful spirit of intellect created from Harry Dresden making contact with the coin of the Fallen Angel Lacsiel. Lash tempts Harry with power and abilities as well as kind words into taking up the coin and joining her master. Lash also gains a genuine affection for Harry and helps him out by concocting ingenious methods to defeat his various foes. She also helps him deduce various facts about the mysteries he's investigating. Lash eventually starts to become more human thanks to Harry and helps against an Outsider empowered enemy before giving her life to save Harry.
Can we start getting into the habit of stating what was changed?
The Draftsman of Doom
Yes to Calder and Bain. Abstain on Baal.
Feels good, don't it?
Yeah what is "bothering" you? Tell us what needs to be changed so I don't have to comb through the entry myself on my work break.
Okay, having to do exactly what I didn't want to it looks like it's the spelling. That's fine, the mods accept SPAG edits on locked pages, you can request it there and just fix the sandbox accordingly.
Edited by 43110 on Oct 18th 2021 at 1:40:17 PM
RIP Toriyama
Yes to Baal, I think, and a bigger one to the VtM keepers!
To match up with the CM thread.... here's this!
What's the work?
The Suicide Motor Club is a horror novel by Christopher Buehlman. Main character Judith Lamb loses her husband and son in a horrible car crash one night on an abandoned street...but not a normal car crash. Two speeding vehicles pulled up next to the family's, snatched the five year old boy out of it, and crashed the car and left the parents for dead. Judith survived and, traumatized, becomes a nun for a time.
Until the day she is approached by a group called "the Bereaved", who offer Judith the chance to hunt down the occupants of the two cars and pay them back for taking her family away. Judith agrees, leaving the church and forced to come to the horrible acceptance that the people who ruined her life were not just street hoodlums...but vampires.
Who is Clayton Birch? What makes him a candidate?
Clayton Birch is an ancient vampire, the oldest we see in the story...his exact age is never actually addressed or given rock-solid info, as things he says indicates he's at least centuries old. Clayton is a unique vampire, though. He doesn't believe killing is the only way to go about things, and gets his fill of blood by simply hypnotizing people, draining them of non-lethal amounts, and departing on his way. Now and then even this is too much strain on his victims and they die, though Clayton does feel a pang of remorse.
Clayton is also interested in learning about his kind, and often teams up with fellow vampires just to study them and their habits. So when he runs into the vile Luther Nixon's gang, Clayton accepts an offer to travel with them...and quickly grows distasteful of the lot, charming them into accepting his company so he can observe, study and doodle them, but ultimately finding every last one of them reprehensible and regularly chiding them for senseless sadism and slayings.
Now, when the group called the Bereaved—of which Judith is a part of—try to attack Luther's gang by burning down the motel they're all in, Clayton notices the attack coming, and...lies back to accept his and the gang's fate, alerting no one, content to die in that moment at peace. But thanks to the gang's creepy human ally Woods, the Bereaved are taken down, but Clayton...is enthralled by Judith, and goes out of his way to try to hide her from the gang, patch her up, then protect her best he can from Luther's sadism.
Clayton later fools Luther and his entire gang to steal one of their prized cars and flee with Judith, Clayton showing himself to be a far more heartfelt, hopelessly romantic vampire than his former allies and earning Judith's trust. The two team up, Clayton hilariously and regularly trying to convince her to become a vampire with him or at least let him kiss her while she shuts him down every time and he gracefully relents, though even she admits she's growing charmed by the old vampire...
Together, the two set a trap for Luther's gang, Clayton agreeing to help despite knowing it's suicide so long as it helps Judith get revenge. Both of them agree to a semi-truce, as well: after Luther's gang is dead, if they both survive, Clayton will sleep during the day in a place Judith can easily find him, and she will have a choice to either wait until he awakens and accept his gift of vampirism...or she will drag him into the sun and kill him as a way of Death Equals Redemption.
Clayton and Judith end up taking down Luther's gang, their trap going off perfectly and crashing both of the gang's beloved vehicles. While Judith kills weaker members Rob and Calcutta after the crash, Clayton murders powerful Beta vampire Cole by using a car door as a weapon, then saves Judith from a still-alive Luther and his servant Neck Brace. But ultimately...in a hilarious bit of poor irony for Luther, as he tries to escape from the rising sun in a nearby shop, the owner of it is one of his past victims, who ends up fucking Luther over and the ancient vampire burns alive in the sun, finishing off the gang.
Meanwhile, Judith stumbles away from the fight and finds a heavy coffin-like box as the sun has risen. Realizing Clayton is inside, she weighs her affection for him and options, and hesitantly, painfully decides to stick with her gut about religion and open the coffin to destroy Clayton in the sun and save his soul as he has "willingly" left her the option...once she opens it, she finds it stuffed with paint cans to emulate human weight, hundreds of dollars to help her get home, and a note from Clayton with a P.O. box address:
Is he magnificent?
Definitely, he's a charming, curious, artistic soul who has lived for centuries (noted to be much longer than most vampires last) because of his cunning and pragmatic view on how he treats humans, and he ends up outdoing Luther's gang, helping Judith with her vengeance, then deciding to renege on their deal to put his fate in her fate, knowing what choice she'll make and unwilling to let go of his life—and ability to socialize with her—just yet. Even Judith is so amused by his final trick and genuinely relieved that he tricked her.
He does almost ditch Judith near the end out of totally admitted fear of Luther's gang and believing they're mission is for naught, but he gets a sign of God or coincidence, laughs at it being an obvious omen from something beyond him, and stays to save the day.
Is he a bastard?
Yes, Clayton is practices Pragmatic Villainy and is...so much better a person than any single member of Luther's gang, but he's still a vampire who hypnotizes people, steals their stuff, drinks their blood to sometimes lethal levels, and spends achunk of the story basically standing by while Luther's gang does heinous stuff so he can observe then. But again, he's ultimately a Noble Demon who turns on the gang and helps Judith kill them all, and has plenty of standards and redeeming moments.
Final Verdict?
Great vampire keep.
Edited by Ravok on Oct 18th 2021 at 11:03:25 AM
Tonight I dine on monkey soup.
Cora, Baal, Calder, Bain, & Birch
to Brich.
So moving on from my question about Mephisto and Diablo, could Maltheal the same series possibly count? Maltheal is the Big Bad of Reaper of Souls, isn't a Complete Monster, and is possibly a Well-Intentioned Extremist. I'm no expert so I just thought to ask
Dude, no. Malthael is a genocidal psychopath who slaughters 90 percent of humanity. G, stop fishing.
And yes to Birch
Edited by Lightysnake on Oct 18th 2021 at 12:06:38 PM
Clayton.
Yes to Clayton and a very weak yes to Baal if only just.
On Malthael, I'd say there is a solid argument to be made that he's a CM. His sole redeeming quality of caring about angels goes out the window when he actually kill angels.
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
Showtime!
to Clayton
I'm 26 today!
Edited by Libraryseraph on Oct 18th 2021 at 3:05:26 PM
Absolute destiny... apeachalypse?
The Draftsman of Doom
I'm earnestly in agreement with that, Lore and I'll have some CM posts there before long.
Happy birthday Library!
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
[moving to next page]
Edited by PurpleEyedGuma on Oct 18th 2021 at 3:31:38 PM
Yes there as well!