During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
Gotta love Jaws!
I'd happily hear out LEGO Joker if there's a case to be made.
President Business and Bad Cop are great bad guys but probably not this.
Wouldn't know regarding the Long Halloween.
"For a second there, I mistook ya for a threat... but you're just a dirty little man!"
Based on memory, Lego Ninjago Movie doesn't have any keepers and yeah, we got Rex from Lego Movie 2. So yeah, it makes sense to look again now after three years—I wasn't even involved on this thread yet—and the fact that we view things through a different lens at this point too.
Edited by futuremoviewriter on Aug 10th 2021 at 11:58:21 AM
I happen to agree actually. Take Spreck from Community. His motivation is similarly petty, but it's not played for jerkishness, the way let's say Will Wheaton is on Big Bang Theory. Joker's relationship with Batman, while it is somewhat childish, is also I feel given pathos.
Edited by jjjj2 on Aug 10th 2021 at 3:15:42 PM
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
Goku Black
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Garmadon would be a better keep in the Ninjago tv series instead.
Along with I think a couple of others.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
I love to hear a re-evaluation on Lego Joker I always believed he counted. Especially since we had a re-evaluation on Aiden Pearce recently which got him approved
Edited by G-Editor on Aug 10th 2021 at 3:50:44 PM
There was a new game there G, it's a different situation. If he ends up counting, it's more like Zabuza. We're evaluating the same info in a new light, rather than using new info to come to a different conclusion.
Edited by jjjj2 on Aug 10th 2021 at 3:56:05 PM
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
RIP Toriyama
Yeah, even as one of the big fighters against LEGO Joker, I think I'd be fine for a relitigation. He's childish and it's Played for Laughs how he's so in love with desperate for Batman's attention, making his motive somewhat petty, but he's immensely entertaining and smart and as j said, it's treated with genuine pathos and development and not just "haha look at the dumb weepy villain", so I'd be way more likely to upvote now.
I'm fine with it but stay focused G, you frequently bring up comparisons that don't apply to the situation we're talking about.
Woagh
Honestly, while his obsession with Batman was played for comedy, the fact that the movie goes out of its way to portray it as genuinely crushing and a serious relationship was why it was so funny imo. It's Bathos at its finest.
And yeah, while movie Garmadon was a fun villain with a good plan, it all blew up in his face at the end and the whole "deadbeat dad" thing was more explicit.
NOISE IS CALLING, PICK UP PHONE
Lies and Violence!
No one's saying no, so...
The LEGO Batman Movie is a Spin-Off of The LEGO Movie, A Day in the Limelight for supporting character Batman.
The candidate(s)
The Joker is, as usual, Batman's Arch-Enemy; out to take over Gotham because evil. Harley Quinn, as usual, is his sidekick and abused lover bestfriend/"girl buddy".
Uniting the Bat's Rogues Gallery into an army, Harley leads them in taking over a nuclear power plant while the Joker hijacks an airplane carrying explosives over Gotham. Setting up the bomb at the reactor, the Joker threatens to send all of Gotham tumbling into the abyss below (go with it) unless the mayor comes to discuss the city's surrender.
The mayor comes... and it's actually Batman. He beats up the rogues before getting to the Joker, who gives him two options: defuse the bomb or defeat his Arch-Enemy. The only problem, of course, is that Bats doesn't actually see the Joker as his nemesis. The Joker tearfully flies away.
(Video of the above scene. Not required viewing, just funny)
Harley tries to cheer Joker up ("you're too good for him"). However, Joker then watches an interview with Superman, talking about how he banished Zod to the Phantom Zone with all the other super-baddies. The two simultaneously get huge evil grins on their faces, as the Joker remarks that he has an idea.
Bringing the villain army to attack new commissioner Barbara Gordon's party, the Joker suddenly surrenders himself and traps all the other unwitting villains in a giant gift box. Naturally, neither Batman nor Barbara trust him, but the latter still arrests them all while Batman is left depressed with nothing to do.
Harley, who left before the mass-surrender and disguised herself as a psychiatrist, feeds on Bruce's paranoia about the Joker's supposed plot by tricking him into deciding to send him to the Phantom Zone. Once he and Robin get the PZ projector they break into the jail, sending Joker to space prison. Bats is arrested since, you know, he broke the law by invoking a really cruel and unusual punishment.
Once in the PZ, Joker convinces the convicts (Voldemort, Sauron, "British Robots", etc.) to help in his revenge scheme. Harley breaks into the jail and steals the projector, opening the portal to the Phantom Zone and allowing the Joker's new minions to rain down chaos from above.
Joker has Sauron find the Batcave under Wayne Manor, which he proceeds to take over and set up as his own lair.
Once Batman gets inside the Manor, Joker taunts him about how he pushed away all his friends. Upon failing to get Bats to say "I hate you," Joker decides that he can't be part of a one-sided relationship any longer — Bats just won't change. It's time for him to move on. And blow up Gotham on his way out, because evil. He sends Bats to the Phantom Zone and has the army gather all the explosives in the Batcave, intending to recreate his plan from the beginning of the movie.
Long story short, Bats gets out and the Batfam returns the army to the PZ. Unfortunately, the bomb goes off and the city is about to split apart. Needing his help, Batman finally admits to the Joker that he is in fact his Arch-Enemy. The two work together to prevent Gotham from tumbling into the abyss, exchanging I hate you's.
(Also not required viewing, still just fun)
Are they magnificent?
The Joker comes up with several surprisingly competent plans, managing to unite a group of some of the worst villains LEGO has the IP to under his leadership. Plus, he's the Joker, so he's as usual hilarious.
His motivation is a bit problematic — he wants Batman to acknowledge him as his Arch-Enemy, and is willing to destroy the entire city when denied — but, as previously mentioned, this is a kid's movie. Where other works might treat this as a Suicidal Cosmic Temper Tantrum, this film (for the most part) treats it as the final stage of his master plan.
When his motivation is brought up it's as a (admittedly comedic) Villain Has a Point, given how a good portion of the movie is centered on Batman being afraid of new relationships and denying those who care about him. Even when he does decide to die with Gotham (as seen in the above clip), this is what gets Bats to finally admit their rivalry. At the end of the day, the Joker gets exactly what he wants: a proper hero-villain relationship.
And yes, I know Harley's not a very prominent character, but she's just so fun with the few scenes she's in. She's integral to the Joker's plan (the Miss Minutes to his He Who Remains, so to speak), pulls off her part with complete success, and is perfectly willing to help save the city once Joker has a change of heart.
Are they bastards?
Try to blow up Gotham and send everyone spiraling into an infinite abyss.
Thoughts?
As I said before I give my ![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to the Joker
Joker. Not sure on Harley though.
@someguy: Yeah Fates doesn't have much of a concise story to the other games. A shame, as its a guilty pleasure otherwise. You could try looking through Three Houses and see if Rhea isn't too much of a bastard, I know Dimitri definitely doesn't count though.
We got Hubert, Edelgard, and the DLC wolf guy so I can't imagine it being IMPOSSIBLE to find another keeper. Though their plans don't intersect so that's another reason. Hubert's plotting directly aids Edelgard, and the wolf guy can be fought on any path.
Don't give up on bolstering Fire Emblem's count! There's likely tons of characters (particularly from Genealogy and maybe Thracia 776 that we haven't discussed! Though with Genealogy, I believe most are played by Manfroy at some point.) from the series who haven't been discussed.
Anyway, yes to Rick and Morty's Michael. Strange, I thought the show was too sadistic to have one particularly with that recent episode involving Morty being a dickhole.
Edit: Yes to Joker, sad abstain to Harley.
Edited by Klavice on Aug 10th 2021 at 1:42:51 AM
Joker and Harley
Gonna abstain on Lego Harley (Jenny Slate) since what she's doing is clearly part of his plan and not one she helped him conceive. Lego Joker is of course a though.
Professor Gigachad
Joker, will never stop suprising me how many MB incarnations this guy gets.
Lies and Violence!
Wasn't real sure on Harley myself, but since Miss Minutes (who I don't believe acted on her own initiative in any way, shape or form) got up, I decided why not.
Woagh
to LEGO Joker no. 2.
He's a criminal mastermind that dresses like a clown and cracks puns endlesssly, he's practically made for this in a kids show, which generally make the "smart goofball" bit more pronounced.
Edited by DoodSlayer136 on Aug 10th 2021 at 1:57:29 AM
NOISE IS CALLING, PICK UP PHONE
Gotta love Jaws!
to Joker and Harley. Think that might be our first Harley actually.
Joker. Abstaining on Harley, as I believe I did with Miss Minutes.
Barb / Temporary Kylo
I actually felt like ask about him for awhile, Happy yes there
My main thing is that while on paper his plan is petty and Childish, in the context of the work it's treated as a legitimate grievance. Part of the movie was Batman learning to learn to stop being afraid of getting closer to people and treat those around him better. Joker being a part of that
It's definitely a case where the tone and being a kids flick helps
And, may not post for a bit. My right hand got hit and I'm bleeding under a finger nail, I'll be fine but it hurts like Hell ATM.
The First man
Maybe a slight to Lego Harley actually as a Hyper-Competent Sidekick. Should they be written up separately or together? I say separately.
Youch. Feel better.
Edited by futuremoviewriter on Aug 10th 2021 at 2:15:04 AM
The best Joker and Harley
hope you feel better soon.
Edited by nwotyzal on Aug 10th 2021 at 2:07:45 AM
Lies and Violence!
If she gets enough votes, I'd say together.
Not to parrot everyone else, but hope you feel better soon.
Edited by EmeraldEmperor on Aug 10th 2021 at 2:09:19 AM
Also, Zach Galifianakis get a clear keeper this time too. It'll certainly make up for losing Humpty.
Our standards probably changed since he was last discussed, so I think it would make a difference.
Again, any answers to my Long Halloween question?
Edited by futuremoviewriter on Aug 10th 2021 at 11:35:25 AM