During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
Ok TTG!Slade here we go:
What is the work?
Teen Titans Go To The Movies is a film based on the comedic reboot Teen Titans Go. The plot of the film is about the Titans being depressed about not staring in their own movie like all the rest of the superheroes, due to how they aren't taken seriously as real heroes. They set out to find and defeat their own Arch-Enemy (with a cool name), figuring that will make people take them serious enough to make them their own film.
Who is he? What does he do?
Slade masquerading under the alter ego of Jade Wilson, a female film director. He/she plays on all the superheroes sense of self entitlement to get them to make movies about themselves which she uses as a distraction to commit crimes under his Slade persona unopposed.
While the heroes are at the premiere of Batman Again. Slade breaks into STAR lab, defeating all the security guards where he shows some rather impressive Combat Pragmatist feats by throwing one of his swords into a guard's gun while he is shooting at him causing the gun to jam and blow up on him.
Upon breaking into the vault where a crystal is located,he is taken aback to see the Titans on his tail. However observing their rather low intelligence he uses a power he likes to call his MIND MANIPULATION....which involves him using the "rubber pencil","detached thumb" and "look behind you" tactic....which works. Slade takes off with the crystal while the Titans are distracted.
The Titans go to Hollywood where they beg Jade Wilson (Slade) to make them a movie, where Jade denies their request claiming that the only way she would consider making a movie for them is if they were the last heroes on the planet.
This gives the Titans the idea to go back in time to prevent the origins of the other superheroes, however this causes an apocalyptic future where the villains run amok due to no heroes around to stop them.
The Titans go back in time to undo the changes they made to the timeline, restoring the present world back to it's natural order.
The Titans confront Slade again while he is energizing the crystal. When Slade's childish MIND MANIPULATION tactics on the Titans fail to work a second time. Slade fights the Titans. When the Titans get the best of him and Robin is about to finish him off, he strokes Robin's ego by telling him that a great superhero would let their archenemy go, which would make for a great movie. This distracts Robin long enough for Slade to make his escape.
Jade Wilson calls the Titans over to Hollywood to give them their own movie following their epic battle with Slade.
When Starfire, Raven, Beast Boy and Cyborg come across a device with the word "Doomsday" on it that Superman and Batman are helping Jade build they attack Superman and Batman, believing that Jade is evil and that Superman and Batman are being brainwashed by her.
Jade explains that "Doomsday"is slang for "Digitally, Ordering, Online, Movies, Streaming, Directly, At, You" stating that it revolutionize all movies everywhere in the world.
Using the Divide and Conquer tactic she states that she isn't going to make a movue for the Titans anymore, but she will make a movie exclusively for Robin, knowing he is the Titan with the most self entitlement issues. Effectively turning him against his friends.
During a scene where Robin is inputting codes to a prop of the Titans Tower vault, Jade arranges a stage light to fall on Robin, knocking him out. While he is out, Jade takes them tp the real Titan Tower and tricks Robin into opening the vault. He restrains Robin and reveals himself to be Slade, he takes the crystal back and states that the D.O.O.M.S.D.A.Y. Device is actually part of his plot to take over the world.
He then blows up Titans Tower and leaves Robin to die in it. Robin uses his baby hands to slip out of the restraints and escapes.
Slade hooks up the crystal into the device and it brainwashes everyone in the world, sans the Titans.
Slade orders the mind controlled heroes to attack the Titans.
Slade shows Robin footage of the scenes they took of the movie, playing on his insecurities causing Robin to be mind controlled. Slade then orders him to kill his friends.
Robin breaks out of the control and the Titans defeat Slade, rather than go on a Villainous Breakdown. Slade ends up being a Graceful Loser, praising the Titans for their "dope" "I Am" Song.
Is he a Bastard? Too much?
Yes! Definitely a bastard. It is Slade after all, even if a comical, parody version of him. Too much of a bastard? Not sure...I would say he is at least slightly less vile than the 2003 Slade since he doesn't get up to the Cold Blooded Tortures that 2003 Slade does. He also legitmately thinks of the Titans as worthy opponents after they become more serious.
Mitigating Factors?
Him, like everyone else is played for comedy even some of his manipulations are used for a joke, especially his initial MIND MANIPULATIONS with the Titans. That said, for all his comedic traits he is ironically the most competent Slade. As he actually succeeded in his plan to take over the world. He had all the mightest superheroes under his fingertips, he only lost after he accomplished his goal.
So yeah...he is definitely more competent than the other comedic adversaries on the show....like by a country mile.
Conclusion?
Well if South Park can have an MB than I don't see exactly why this show can't. I however understand if he ultimately doesn't count.
Edited by username2527 on Nov 16th 2018 at 2:41:42 AM
Shin Megami Tensei IV
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Slade. Sounds silly, but that silliness...have a charm of it's own, plus being that competent...yeah.
More opinions on Fuuma?
Edited by KazuyaProta on Nov 16th 2018 at 5:55:48 AM
Watch me destroying my country
to Slade.
What about the Man In Black, also from Lost?
Edited by G-Editor on Nov 16th 2018 at 1:00:49 AM
Slade ![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
Fuuma
I’ll say yea to this Slade. Sadism game doesn’t sound too overt.
I think I'll abstain on Slade until I watch the film myself: one, for spoilers and two I kinda wanna see how he's played. Then again, I got Hank Scorpio up.
I'll abstain on Fuuma.
Right. I saw Crimes of Grindelwald. PM's are open for me.
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
Sure on Slade
"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
Shaky to Slade.
He mostly fits given he played a really long game with being a Manipulative Bastard and the number of people he influenced. But he does have mitigating factors like breaking character a few times and like you mentioned being silly here and there.
But sure I'll support unless someone can give a convincing reason why he doesn't count
Edited by Snowy66 on Nov 16th 2018 at 6:49:29 AM
No to Fuuma. Slade seems silly, but not too much so; I'll say yes to him.
Goku Black
Slade
Found this on the The Good Place YMMV. Has this been approved?
- Magnificent Bastard: The Season 1 finale reveals that Michael is actually a demon, and everyone has been in the Bad Place all along. On his first architect job, he came up with a way to make people's eternal suffering more fun by arranging small groups of people who will torture each other entirely on their own while thinking they're in the Good Place. Only Eleanor, Chidi, Tahani, and Jason are real people. And despite Eleanor figuring the whole thing out, he simply wipes their memories and starts over, with only a vague note Eleanor managed to leave behind to stop it from continuing forever. Though it does decay in the start of Season 2 where it becomes clear that no matter what he does, he keeps failing over and over again, to the point where Vicky threatens him to take over the neighborhood and he has to team up with the main four. However, he recovers it in the middle of the season where he successfully manipulates Shawn and fools him into believing there was only one reboot while simultaneously getting Vicky out of the way.
I haven't seen the show but this isn't a bad write-up.
Frolaytia X Qwenthur of Heavy Object
Hey guys, if the CM To-Do lists were moved to their own page, then should the MB To-Do lists get their own page too?
IPP Wick Check created.
Honestly I don't think it's necessary quite yet. We've been very quiet recently as well.
But hey, what say 43110, our esteemed leader?
So far I'm at around the halfway point of Let's Go Eevee and I thi k Giovanni might be a keeper, though I'll wait to discuss him.
Fair warning: I can get pretty emotional and take things too seriously.
Shocker.
This be-ith a society with merits in democracy and thusly I would like to know-(th) if people would like a seperate to do page or leave it as is?
- Asks "Leader 43"
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
Mmmmmm I think separate page can work. But I'll let the others think.
"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
I would like to propose adding Cinder Falls and Raven Branwen from RWBY back to the Magnificent Bitch thread.
From their original write-up:
- Cinder Fall manipulates just about everyone without anybody fully realizing what's going on or being able to stop her, culminating in her big speech in "PvP" creating mass panic, causing the populace to distrust Ozpin and his fellow authority figures, and spawn chaos with a Grimm invasion. This is followed by seizing control of most of the military hardware that was brought in specifically to defend against her, and adding to the world-wide panic by broadcasting images of this apparent betrayal.
- Raven is revealed to be one in "Vault of the Spring Maiden." She was the Spring Maiden and had Vernal masquerade as the maiden in a ruse that completely fooled everyone, including Cinder.
The original reason for dismissing them was apparently:
"Raven Branwen is too much a sniveling coward more than an MB when her facade is torn down and Cinder is just too much of a sadistic bitch to ever qualify."
However, I question this since the closest Raven shows to cowardice is her belief that Salem cannot be beaten. Which Volume 6 shows is something she has VERY good reasons to beleive. And while Cinder is a Complete Monster, that hasn't stopped other villains from being listed as Magnificent Bastards before. In both cases, Cinder and Raven are considered to be examples of Evil Is Cool by many people, so I don't think this is a case of the bastardry overwhelming the magnificence.
And finally, the wording above feels far too subjective. It comes across not as an objective evaluation, but instead:
"I don't like this character, so I say they don't qualify."
Goingto have to object to both of them. I don't see much likable or magnificent about either
Edited by Lightysnake on Nov 17th 2018 at 11:18:02 AM
For what reason?
Cinder is far from magnificent. She's simply an awful, sadistic excuse for a human being who is unbelievably smug and petty. Raven is likewise an utterly awful human being without much likable to her name.
See, this is what I mean above.
That's your opinion. You don't like the characters. That's fine. But it feels like you're trying to impose your opinions as facts on the site.
Looking outside someone's personal like or dislike for a character, and Cinder ticks all the boxes recquired for being a Magnificent Bitch (While Raven ticks all but one, and that's only due to the fact that she hasn't been put into that kind of circumstance yet.)
- They are both intelligent This is undeniable. Cinder succesfully executed a multi-season Kansas City Shuffle to weaken Vytal's defenses and cripple their communications with the outside world. Pulling of several of the Thirty Six Strategems throughout. Raven meanwhile is a cautious, well-spoken Warrior Poet who has the foresight to also use decoys to hide her true plans.
- They are both bastards Again, undeniable. Raven is a Social Darwinist who abandoned her own daughter, and Cinder is a sadistic, power-hungry monster.
- Must not kill the magnificence with their bastardry That one can be debated, and is YMMV to be sure. However, given again the fact that both characters are seen as examples of Evil Is Cool. A strong case is made for the answer being that they have not killed their magnificence. Certainly it's going too far to say that there is "nothing likable about them."
(Though admittedly, this is one of the concerns I have with the thread. That it'll become just a couple of people imposing their own subjective veiws on the site and calling it "official", or making judgements on character's from shows they haven't even watched.)
- Think on their feet When Cinder's initial plan of attack was ruined in Volume 2, she was quick to improvise and use new information and opportunity provided to make her second attack in Volume 3 even more effective. After being defeated in Volume 5, she's already building back her strength for a second attack. The one exception to this was after being defeated in Volume 3. However, given that she was nearly crippled, lost an eye and was rendered mute. Her not immediately bouncing back was understandable.
Raven admittedly hasn't demonstrated this trait so far. But simply due to the fact that she has not currently been put into a position where she needs to.
- They both have charm I'm assuming this refers to in-universe charm. And for that both characters definitely apply. Able to get multiple people to show absolute loyalty and even devotion to them just from the strength of their charisma.
Edited by Giantleviathan on Nov 17th 2018 at 11:44:22 AM
Cinder, again, comes off as almost entirely charmless. After season 3, or at the tail end of it, her magnificence tends to completely vanish. She's smug, ill-tempered, ends up broken and humiliated (and never recovers,) while driven by a grudge to murder a teenager for...injuring her for sadistically murdering Cinder's defeated opponent.
Raven is likewise a loyalty-free coward whose actions are largely just vile. She's a murdering thief who killed a scared girl because Raven judged her too 'weak' to live in the world. Couple this with her parenting (or lack thereof), and I'm not seeing the magnificence in either.
I just gave multiple examples of Magnificence above. Again, is this "Magnificent Bastard Cleanup Thread"? or "Villains That Lightysnake Doesn't Like."?
I'd say for the JAG verse examples. Ari and Wo Fat probably qualifie
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."