During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
Feel better mir! Sorry for not saying it sooner.
Also the last of our lovely ladies who can't put down the chips:
- Mary Satome was an untouchable gambler Hyakkakou Academy until a series of losses force her to confront the possibility of having her whole life mapped out for her. Allying with her rival Yumeko, she and Mary concoct a scheme during a debt swap game to lure their smug opponent into betting all his chips and destroying him financially while erasing Mary's debt. Content sitting on the sidelines for sometime afterwards, Mary steps back into the game when the Student Council President offers up her seat to whomever wins her gambling tournament, Mary shows her skills yet again: winning a match by analyzing the shuffling pattern of the deck, defeating the Vice President of the academy and even saving Yumeko from being poisoned. During the final game of the series, Mary comes up with a strategy to intimidate her opponents from betting against and even uncovers the secret mastermind.
Also no worries Emerald 
Gather what you need and we'll hear you out!
Edited by 43110 on May 26th 2021 at 2:38:14 PM
Woagh
Yo, anyone mind if I reserve a little game called ULTRAKILL? I believe that a case could be made for the protagonist, considering how the game is played.
NOISE IS CALLING, PICK UP PHONE
Lizzid people!
Lies and Violence!
Updated Irritant with an actual summary. Don't think he'll get through, but might as well keep him up in case anyone changes their minds.
The next candidate, Traitorous, has a bit more substance to what he did, but still not too much. I feel more confident about him, but will still wait for the general reception to Irritant before putting him forward.
Also, got my first COVID shot. If I don't put up Traitorous or get back to anyone who asks me anything later in the day, that'll be because I'm busy dying. Feel okay at the moment, so here's hoping that stays the case.
The real trouble mostly comes after the second shot.
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
So... on the note of Spongey being a crossover on paper, I feel like sooner or later we had to re-examine another on-paper crossover...
43 and I, back during the Vicious discussion, talked over a certain crossover candidate we both ultimately agreed should go— that being Albert Wily. Now, I fought pretty damn hard to get Wily up, Scraggle pulled a last-minute save on me, which I've always been thankful for, and managed to get him kept in the first place and still to this day has argued for Wily. There's definitely damn good reason the guy's up: He's utterly, utterly cool, a brilliant planner, and has kickass songs and charisma for days.
So, here's the key issue, and it's the same one Wily originally had. He's petty. Having given the liner notes, which contain much of the actual story, a re-read, Wily, while absolutely cool and doing a lot of stuff which could be petty just for his plan, has a ton of unnecessary flourishes, between:
- Trying to seduce Light's girlfriend for some reason. He spins this one quite well actually, and I noted to 43 that there's clearly no Yandere angle going on, but he has no reason to do it beyond wanting to take what is Light's, and kills her without a second thought. Framing Light for it is an ingenious move, but he had no reason to do it in the first place.
- Not only framing Light, but going live and demanding a harsher verdict when Light is pretty much no threat to him. There's other indications that he may have some envy toward Light, like how when Light is opposing him, Wily childishly exclaims "Don't turn your back on me!" Overall, it reads much less like it's simple pragmatism and more that he's specifically gunning for Light.
- The liner notes mention that not only do vagrants and bad elements disappear in the city he controls, which is hard not to read as having some Kill the Poor vibes, but it's mentioned that children have to be told by their parents not to express negative feelings toward the city or his guard robots— implying that Wily's been "disappearing" kids just for speaking out against him.
- Upon having a resounding success in outplaying Light and his new rebel comrade Joe, Wily proceeds to name the sniper model robots after Joe— again, a completely unnecessary flourish that he does because "fuck Light, am I right?"
- In Act 1, Wily has a crowd of protestors gunned down despite them not being a threat. It fits with a huge pattern of him doing unnecessarily cruel things.
And what's really damning for me? This isn't a Steerpike or Makishima case where there's a strong motive behind it but the character still reaches CM. Wily is motivated by, as far as we are given, a feeling of being unappreciated and a desire for power. The exact lyrics (From "The Good Doctor") are:
- We've spent our whole lives searching for a way to make a better world
Giving everything to them, asking nothing in return
Well, here it is... our chance to take back everything we've earned.
Wily's motivation is that the people of the city don't appreciate his work for them, so he proceeds to try to seduce Light's girlfriend, ruin Light's life, take power, forge an industrial hellscape of a city, and kill all dissenters. There is a philosophy there, namely that people want others to lead them, and all Wily's doing is filling the void of dictator that people need... which is an absolutely egotistical justification for what he does and pales in comparison to Steerpike's implicitly horrific backstory or Makishima's desire to "see the splendor of people's souls."
Not sure where else to put this, but there's also a bit in The Cover Up, essentially a side story I missed in the original discussion, where one of his double agents dealing with Light calls him, and he smugly tells her "I don't want your excuses. I want results." before promptly having an audible breakdown and throwing something around, which shows a serious lack of dignity on his part. It's a minor blip in the grand scheme, but to me, it's another indication of the idea that he's just a megalomaniacal, spiteful psycho behind a charismatic exterior.
I'm sure there will be counterarguments, and just to pre-emptively get at least one of the counterarguments out of the way... yes, I am absolutely pulling from the liner notes and side content here, those contain the bulk of the actual story of the Protomen. If we just had the music, he'd keep, but the liner notes and side content are treated as full entries in canon. While the music depicts him as being a cunning mastermind, the liner notes and side content heavily imply that's a mask for a power-hungry, ego-driven madman.
In summary, while I'd be sad to see him go, I feel Wily is an egotistical, petty villain who has a philosophy that's blatantly self-serving and who does a lot of his deeds out of pure spite and a desire for adulation and power. That said, I love the guy with all my heart and I welcome discussion on the topic, so anyone with counterarguments should feel more than free to hit me with 'em.
Edited by Riley1sCool on May 26th 2021 at 12:12:28 PM
I don't see why being petty towards Light Yagami is disqualifying. I'd be petty towards him too if I could get away with it... *whisper, whisper* This isn't Light Yagami but Doctor Light from Megaman!?... I guess a cut for Wily then.
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
The Draftsman of Doom
Cut Wily.
Cut Albert. Not only a CM, but a manic and petty one.
...I called him Thomas Wily in the post, didn't I? Between that and the OG Fitchner writeup, I've been off my game this week. Ah, well, let's hope I'm on my game for tomorrow's discussion.
Edit: And I am going to note that Act III isn't out yet or has even been really announced— it's entirely possible that, depending on how it goes, we might be seeing Wily either strengthen the cut or get back up and manage to land this one again.
Edited by Riley1sCool on May 26th 2021 at 12:14:13 PM
- Complete Monster: Dr. Albert Wily, once the partner of the brilliant Dr. Thomas Light, decided to take Light's revolutionary idea of robotic labor and twist it to his own ends. As "The Hounds" shows, Dr. Wily destroys his former colleague by having Light's love, Emily, murdered, and pinning it on him, even gleefully waxing that any chance for him to go back on his monstrous deeds has been passed up and forgotten by him. In the present day, Wily has absolutely taken over the city, purging all "undesirables" and having anyone who speaks up shot by his one-eyed sniper, even naming later models of it after Light's fallen friend Joe simply to spite their attempt at rebellion. In "Sons of Fate", after Light's final attempt to topple Wily ends with his champion Protoman seemingly killed, Wily reveals to Light's other son Mega Man that he converted a broken Protoman to his side, seeing Mega Man kill Protoman to destroy his will—and once he succeeds, orders the large crowd of people amassed to see the fight utterly massacred by his robotic army. Wily is a monster who revels in every single moment of his treachery, never even buying into the rhetoric he uses to control the masses and simply glorying in his status as the untoppled ruler of all there is.
Based on this writeup, he’s not magnificent at all.
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
Edited by PurpleEyedGuma on May 26th 2021 at 3:18:03 PM
I hate spoilers
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Is that from The Protomen? He's not just petty, but also needlessly cruel and sadistic. There's no way he fits.
Edited by 227someguy on May 26th 2021 at 3:21:11 PM
Everyone look at my sandbox
Trust me when I say Wily is magnificent— that's not the part in question. He's charismatic as all hell, puts his best foot forward in terms of music, is an absolutely brilliant mastermind... that entry is all about how awful he is but, fittingly for a CM entry, doesn't really mention that he's a genius and an absolutely charming character who'll have even the audience likely pulling for him at points before the story pans out and shows you the consequences of his actions. Again, the guy's literally inches from MB and it's very plausible to me he'll hit it if the third act ever comes out.
The issue, again, is the fundamental pettiness there and his pattern of being a petty psychopath behind all his charisma and intelligence.
Barb / Temporary Kylo
Honestly I was concerned before but seeing it all laid out I'm for keeping the guy.
It feels like alot of his petty moments rely more on indication and such. And what the work emphasises The most is how cool he is and such.
Also? He didn't have the crowd massacred in Act 1 for no reason. The narration says how it was to 'Punish them for there thoughts of rebellion', a bit helping him is that the Crowd are meant to be viewed as disgusting cowards left to there death after having Megaman kill his brother.
Its a case of technicalities, when I got into these, Wilys dickishness stood out to me more then him being cool, but in terms of what the work Emphasizes?, his suaveness and charisma is given front and center.
And while having a bit more deph is indeed a thing that helps, I'm not sure if the goal they work towards being Wholly selfish should be D Qing...Hans Gruber tries to blow up a pregnant lady, and Harry Lime is willing to Condemn several people, including kids to a Horrific death for the sake of Money.
Edited by Snoketrope on May 26th 2021 at 1:25:52 AM
The First man
Yeah having talked this one over with Riley I can't say I see him as a keeper. The Kill the Poor implications seem to ring of the same flashes of scenes indicating Vicious might have raped Julia and even without that, I don't think he's so cool if offsets how petty he is. There seem to be some dictatorial undertones to the song and while I totally concur Evil Is Cool is at play, hell, he's as cool as many an MB, I don't think he is one himself.
Again, I don't feel Wily's selfishness is the problem, it's just how much cruelty he commits for the sake of flaunting his power and victory. Also, while the crowd are absolutely a huge example of Asshole Victim... him "punishing them for their thoughts of rebellion" is no different from anything else he does in my opinion.
The comparison I made to 43 is Baron Zemo— which makes sense as to why Snoke would defend him because Snoke and I were Zemo's biggest defenders to my recollection— while his deeds are beyond phenomenally intelligent and what the work emphasizes are absolutely their charm and delightfulness as villains, the entire character has a heavy undercurrent of pettiness and egotism, and to me ignoring that undercurrent just doesn't work. Wily is a toe-tapping delight, but it doesn't absolve him of things that would get another MB cut in my mind.
Lizzid people!
I mean with cases like Gruber and the like, while on the end their scheme amounts to greed, at the least he doesn't appear to take satisfaction at killing and views it more in a practical sense.
For the record I get and respect where Snoke's coming from, as I did with Scraggle's also well thought-out defence. To me it's too much but it's like Zemo himself, if we do end up keeping him that's cool but some of the implications are gross and I don't quite think the Hans comparison aligns (though I do concur with parts of it and respect your argument again) in that Hans lacks any dictatorial tones to his character whatsoever, there's no hint of pettiness and he doesn't instate a regime that's got some Nazi sounding shit going on to it. He's cool, yes and the question it comes to to me is how much does being cool save him. Normally I'd be a full on, no question 'no' but the thing that might save him is the nature of the medium and how it's able to show what he does. This is a good talk to have.
A total has-been.
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Hank Perkins, Falsetto Jones, Jack Hench, and Kirai. Abstain on Wily.
![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
Adaptational Complete Monster Spongebob, a reminder that while many Magnificent Bastards are evil masterminds, not all masterminds are magnificent.
Woagh
Cut Wily. Seems he hits the marks normally, he just hits the "bastard" bit a wee too hard.
NOISE IS CALLING, PICK UP PHONE
Professor Gigachad
Down goes another one, Cut Wily.
Also late SpongeBob.
Edited by Ordeaux26 on May 26th 2021 at 12:36:52 PM
CM Sandboxes, MB Sandboxes
Gotta love Jaws!
Slight cut to Wily, tis a shame.
"For a second there, I mistook ya for a threat... but you're just a dirty little man!"
Work
Gotham is a Batman prequel following a young James Gordon and Bruce Wayne.
Who is Copperhead?
Larissa "Copperhead" Diaz is an assassin out to kill loose ends in th murders of Thomas and Martha Wayne.
Bastard
One of her intended victims is a young girl and she murders a gardener in cold blood and without much need to when he stumbles across her on the manor grounds (she did seem capable to coming up with a bogus story ad would have attacked the house before he could do anything) then coldly smears herself with his blood to sell her story. She's also willing to hold Bruce at gunpoint.
Skill and Intelligence
She does a convincing job of faking a car accident to get into Wayne Manor to try and kill Selina Kyle. She beats Gordon in a marital arts fight and mockingly says they should do it again sometime as he lies unconscious. She kills one of her targets, Lovecraft, and makes a clean getaway after the other, Selina Kyle, gets away and never reappears. She tracks down Lovecraft just before he can reveal the truth of the conspiracy and kills him with the gun of an unconscious Gordon (the cop trying to protect him) to further cloud the issue.
Charm
She tells Gordon he can step aside and she won't kill him along with Lovecraft. She seems somewhat amused and resupectful toward Bruce and Gordon when they try to stop her from killing her targets. She says she'd rather not hurt Bruce, as he isn't on her contact, although that doesn't mean she won't. When Bruce still remains silent as Selena escapes she does spare his life anyway, but tells him to not mistake "bravery for good sense" in the future.
Feel better Mir!
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid