During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
Shin Megami Tensei IV
Yes to both of Snake’s candidates.
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to Phibes and Grayson
As we did when Zelius petered off can we get whoever has yet to vote on Bondrewd weigh in? He's sitting at 7-3 and a few more would help us see if he's a conclusive keep or cut. Thanks!
Adding to that, I'm not going to point fingers but we all know a good chunk of this thread isn't voting as... "regularly" as they should. We are a small group and to reach satisfactory conclusions on EPs (which, as has been said many times before, do take time and effort) we need everyone who has an opinion on it voicing it, even if just to abstain, it's just courteous.
Edited by 43110 on Jul 17th 2018 at 11:57:56 AM
V
Was a little too busy yesterday to vote on stuff, Phibes and Grayson. As for Bondrewd... that's a hard one, but since there's little sadism or pettiness behind what he does, I'll give a hesitant yes.
Not sure if I've even posted here before, but Phibes and Grayson. Bondrewd's a fascinating character but strikes me as more tragic than magnificent![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
.
Unsure on Bondrewd, mainly because what he does is so god damn awful and horrific even with the context that he loves them and the Blue-and-Orange Morality.
I feel like this is similar to the Kyubey discussion we had earlier.
I think a big difference for me...Bondred lacks Kyubey's smugness and breakdowns.
Now, I have two potential villains from the manga Blade of the Immortal:
What's the Work?
Blade of the Immortal was a long running manga by Hiroaki Samura known for its breathtaking art, thoughtful plot and exceptional fight scenes. The plot involves a man named Manji: an immortal warrior cursed with the Kessen-Chu bloodworms for killing a hundred good men, including his sister's husband. To atone and remove his immortality, Manji has vowed to slay 1000 evil men...and soon after he's approached by Rin Asano, the heiress of the Asano dojo, whose family were murdered by the Itto-Ryu: a dojo that adheres to no school at all, that seeks official recognition by destroying other dojos. Their leader? The cunning, beautiful warrior: Kagehisa Anotsu.
Who is Anotsu?
A young man of exceptional charisma and fighting skill. Long ago, his grandfather was the student of the Asano dojo and saved the master's life...however, he was shunned and cast out because he used a foreign weapon in defense of his master. Kagehisa was born long after, the heir to his grandfather's dream of retribution...putting together his followers, Kagehisa Anotsu created the Itto-Ryu, to erase the dogma of sword schools and destroy them utterly....one night? He destroyed the Asanos, killing Rin's father while her mother was killed by his men. His one order to his men? Not to touch Rin because assaulting children showed no class.
Manji takes the job and he and Rin begin eliminating members of the Itto-Ryu. Catching on quick. Anotsu gives orders to deal with them, even approaching his former lover and childhood friend, Makie Otone Tachibana (the greatest warrior alive) to deal with Manji, though Makie opts to abandon the fight...now, Anotsu runs into Rin at one point and spares her life, noting her adherence to her own fighting style? Means she's forsaken the ways of the Asano dojo, and Anotsu gleefully points out: "You are halfway to being one of us already."
Anotsu is seeking official recognition of the shogunate, though a hit squad called the Mugai-Ryu are called to deal with the Itto-Ryu. Anotsu puts together a plan to flee Edo and get to his men again by hiring prostitutes to pose as him in disguise, throwing off the pursuers. Anotsu retreats deep into the mountains, where he enters into a new dojo and is made the heir, even marrying the leader's daughter Hisoka. However...anotsu learns of a shogunate plot against him that is killing most of the Itto-Ryu and that the dojo he's entered means to kill him. The master commits suicide out of shame and Anotsu flees. Hisoka kills herself to atone for her family's betrayal of him and anotsu, bizarrely, ends up traveling with Rin, with the two coming to a strange understanding together (Rin even admitting if his crimes weren't against her personally, she could even understand him)...Anotsu begins to sicken as they're pursued, though it ends with his survival and return to the Itto-Ryu...Anotsu rallies them for all out war with the head of the black ops for the Shogunate, Habaki Kagimura. Now, when Rin sneaks into Edo castle of all places, Anotsu decides he can't let her upstage him and with only three other warriors, sneaks into Edo Castle and leaves a hell of a mark, even painting a message on the side of the wall reminding the Shogunate they're not going away and they can be enemies or allies. They're choice (Which in 1600s Japan requires guts like you would not believe).
In the final battle, Anotsu lures the remaining fighters of Habaki Kagimura into a battle while intending to flee Japan with his soldiers using his overseas cousins from China to escape. A gigantic, volumes long war ensues as Anotsu enters into a personal duel with Habaki,even blinding him. Things go wrong when a Shogunate toady ends up using a rifle squad to interfere, which ends up mortally wounding Makie, who dies after wiping out the rifle users. Anotsu proceeds to execute said toady before he and Habaki resume their duel...Anotsu finishing him off at last. After a final talk with Manji, Anotsu opts to kill him and Rin to end things for good, while acknowledging Rin deserves her revenge on him. They fight, with anotsu being far superior on a technical level, but too exhausted to put up a fight. Manji severs his arm and Anotsu is left to depart on a ship, vowing that one day his descendants will return and create the world of the warrior he dreamed of...hearing this? Rin recovers and runs towards him. Anotsu sees her...and peacefully smiles, closing his eyes as she impales him. Anotsu tells Manji that one day Itto-Ryu will be forgotten..and asks Manji to remember them. Manji swears to as Anotsu collapses into the sea, his body recovered...altohugh it is hinted he is still alive as the ships depart...with the possibility his dreams will live on long after.
Is he charming? Charismatic? A planner?
Anotsu is a Noble Demon through and through. He's genteel, charming and polite. He's charismatic as all HELL, rallying some of the most dangerous warriors in the world to his banner via the sheer force of will and his dream of a world of the supremacy of the sword. On a personal level, Anotsu is complex. He can be...very insightful and relaxed, treating some of his men as valued friends. Even with Rin, he sees right through her, and forms a bizarre sort of friendship with her, to the extent Rin finds herself swayed by his vision and charisma at times. It's worth nothing that even when he is an utterly shattered man at the end, losing Makie? He recovers and vows to look to the future. He tends to handle pure rage with a calm smile and soft words and little ever phases him. Even the death of his true love in his arms brings only a few tears, even if it's clear his heart is ripping in half.
As far as what makes him magnificent? Anotsu is bold, a good planner, an amazing strategist and tactician and his assault on Edo Castle is unbelievably gutsy, with four swordsmen taking on the Shogunate's elite guards. I can't stress how incredible that whole sequence was
Is he a bastard? Too much?
Anotsu is...a bad guy. He wipes out dojos, killing their masters, and he's happy to kill whoever is in his way. His worst crime is leaving the scene, with his men raping Rin's mother (Anotsu isn't a rapist and disdains it, but he doesn't act to stop it). However, at this point, a lot of Itto-Ryu members were pretty sick thugs, with only one member of the group trying to talk them down. He's forced to leave in disgust when they make it clear that pressing the matter would cost him his life, something Anotsu knew. He did, however, make it strictly clear: do NOT touch Rin, with one of his personal right hand men protecting her. As the manga goes on, though, Anotsu has a Heel Realization for what he's done and expresses genuine remorse for these crimes, telling Rin he's "done her great harm."
Besides that...Anotsu cares deeply for the Itto-Ryu. He treats some of his men like treasured comrades and friends. While he uses prostitutes as decoys, this is because he figures his pursuers are honorable Edo samurai and won't harm them (this, uhh...doesn't go how he thinks as Shira the series Serial Rapist Complete Monster is one of the pursuers, but I digress). He's also very polite and kind to women he sleeps with, and he cares greatly for his first wife Hisoka, to the point he offers to keep their marriage chaste, due to her illness and physical fragility. And Makie? He deeply, DEEPLY loves her. One of the only things that makes him crack and shout is when he learns Makie is selling her body to get by and has mutilated her sword hand to destroy her talent. His interactions with her are incredibly touching and heartwarming after the two become husband and wife in all but name, and he makes certain to take her body with him when he leaves.
He also has a remarkable sense of honor and his dream is for a world where warriors won't be used and thrown aside.
Conclusion?
I'd say Anotsu counts easily. His early crimes are bad, but Character Development and the Gray-and-Gray Morality nature of the work make it stand out all the more, in addition? There are some revolting thugs he stands head and shoulders over, like Shira. Anotsu is probably one of the better examples of this in Seinen.
I’ll go yeah there. The fact he allows a rape to occur is disgusting but breaks off the organization and expresses personal disgust. Heel Realization is enough for me there.
to all of Lighty’s candidates
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
to Anotsu... You will get into Habaki Kagimura right?
V
Anotsu and, don't forget that this is the 100th page.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Yaaaaaaay! Now let's just hope aliens don't decide to cancel us ![[lol]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/lol2v12_4863.png "[lol]"){kind=small}
Indeed! Let’s wait until we reach our 200 page! Until then let’s hope Cartman won’t seek revenge on us for removing him as a MB!
Anotsu. Ain't Character Development a lovely thing?
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
Congrats on the 100 pages and we deserve it... Lets hope it reach more than that and hope this thread could attracts more tropers
Edited by ElfenLiedFan90 on Jul 17th 2018 at 8:50:35 PM
"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
Also, from the stuff that I know from the examples Joseph brought up last page:
- The two characters from Rosenkreuzstilette are both quite smug, in particular the Big Bad, who is also a Complete Monster;
- Ultron is also a Complete Monster and IIRC affected Sigma's agency, so they're both probably out;
- Higurashi: Nomura is an absurdly vile woman, Shion tricks a guy into liking her so her sister can have a boyfriend, a clever ploy by someone who is not bad enough at all and Miyo... she's got moments of intelligence but delves into Bond Villain Stupidity and her horrific past has turned her into such an unstable Psychopathic Womanchild I don't think she can maintain the level of functionality required for this trope.
Tl;dr: cut everything.
The Unknown Unknown
(moonwalks in)
Heyo.
You might've see me in casual threads as well as the CM thread. Thought I'd add another thread to the list. Fair warning, like in the CM thread, I don't consume nearly as much media as the others (or it's already covered by someone else), so I have no clue how active I'll really be.
Now, allow me to prove I've done my homework by EPing one of my favorite villains.
What's the work?
Fire Emblem is a Strategy Fantasy RPG based on the Medieval/Renaissance era made by Intelligent Systems. Most games tend to have their own continuity. Today, we'll be looking into a specific era of the old 90s: the Judgral duology. Our main game of interest is the fourth entry in the franchise, Genealogy of the Holy War. The continent of Judgral is divided into kingdoms that were founded by the legendary precursors known as the Crusaders. Peace was maintained because of them, but the lingering darkness casted by Loptyr, the dark god and enemy of the Crusaders, and his followers, the Loptyrians, soon coalesces.
Who is the candidate? The character’s actions?
Our candidate is the most enduring antagonist of Holy War', Arvis of Velthomer. His father, the former duke, hanged himself in despair, leaving a very young Arvis to lead Velthomer. However, due to his innate talents and toughness, Arvis preserved and rose to power using his gift, even taking care of his bastard half-brother Azelle who he cared for very much.
Fast forward to the game's plot, Arvis stays at the side of the Emperor of Grannvale Azmur while Prince Kurth wages war on Isaach thanks to border and barbarian disputes. The reemergence of violence and corruption sparked the flames of ambition with Arvis, leading him to seek out the high priest of the Loptyrian Cult, Manfroy. With a secret ally, Arvis proceeds to act on his ambition. When news of Prince Kurth's assassination arrived, the blame was placed on the House of Chalphy by Duke Lombard of Dozel and Duke Reptor of Freege. This was done through his scheme to supplant the other lords by having them fight one another, claiming the lands in Jugdral along the way. Arvis then proceeded to kill these lords when they were grievously weakened. All the while, Arvis remained by the bedridden King Azmur's side, standing in as his loyal attendant. During he eventually meets a woman named Deirdre, who was in fact the amnesiac wife of Sigurd planted there by Manfroy for Arvis to find.
His loyalty was repaid: Arvis was eventually chosen to be the heir of Azmur and given the position of Emperor until his son Julius grew old enough to succeed him. When news of Sigurd's army approaching Belhalla reached him, Arvis devised a plan to trick the army into its demise. He first sent Lombard to wage a battle with the army, where he was slain. As Sigurd's army approached the outskirts of Belhalla, he sent Reptor into the battlefield. As Reptor proceeded to carry out Arvis' orders, Arvis suddenly turned on him and cooperated with Sigurd to end his life, having his troop of mages bombard Reptor with spells from afar. Arvis proceeded to instruct Aida to direct Sigurd's army to Belhalla.
Arvis and his personal guards then held an elaborate ceremony to greet Sigurd's army on their victorious return to Belhalla in an attempt to meet with King Azmur to dispel the slander placed on the Chalphy name.
Nobody told Sigurd this ceremony had fireworks, and they were main attraction.
Outing them as traitors, Arvis uses his personal tome Valflame to kill Sigurd while his personal guards cast a mass meteor shower to seemingly obliterate the rest of Sigurd's army. With the death of Sigurd, Arvis remained the sole power of Grannvale and was eventually crowned as Emperor. He successfully created a peaceful regime in Grannvale that lasted for approximately ten years and was also blessed with twin children, Julius and Julia, with Deirdre.
Now, it was time for Arvis to catch Hell.
When Manfroy hands the Tome of Loptyr to Julius, the latter's personality changes drastically, eventually molding him into a vessel of the dark god. Because of the pact by Azmur, Arvis is unable to stop his son from ruining the perfect empire he sacrificed everything to construct. Julius adopted oppressive measures in his ruling, including the "Child Hunts" — young sacrifices to appease the Dark Lord, alongside the extermination of any form of resistance. Deirdre was also slain by Julius, but not before she managed to teleport Julia to safety.
Arvis does everything he can to revert the disaster but is eventually confronted by Seliph and his army of libertationists. Before doing so, however, he sent out a bishop with Tyrfing and several children, intending for Seliph to receive the sword and rescue the children. Arvis is eventually slain by Seliph, but the latter realizes Arvis was but an idealistic man powerless to escape the cruel tidings of fate.
Charming? Charismatic? A good planner?
Oh, absolutely. Once Arvis has a plan, has his ideals on the line, he'd sacrifice anything to achieve them. This just so happens to be a better world where all is equitable, all is peaceful. Arvis is an ambitious man who's seen and suffered trial after trial, but his dreams for peace is pure. As corruption and oppression ran rampant in and around Grannvale, Arvis had the ambition to build a world of eternal peace, with the people not having to suffer any longer. This definitely makes him admirable as a villain.
As for his planning skills, despite Manfroy's machinations planting a bad seed in Arvis, everything that occurs in Gen 1 is all his doing. As I will state many times, nobody in Grannvale or Judgral at large knew of his plans until it was too late. Subterfuge, blame-pinning, and false pretenses were all fair game, and as the massacre at Belhalla shows, he isn't above adding his own hellfire into the mix. When things went awry in Gen 2, it did leave him in despair, but even so, Emperor Arvis tried his best to atone under Julius/Loptyr and Manfroy's radars — all up until his death, where he managed to deliver the one tool to end the war: the Tyrfing.
Is he a bastard? Too much?
Arvis is singlehandedly responsible for orchestrating the franchise's most infamous Moral Event Horizon: Battle of Belhalla. Arvis and his men rained down hell (meteors) that slaughtered the army Sigurd built and befriended. Sigurd himself was burned alive by Arvis himself, but not before the latter gloated by showing him his amnesiac wife. Even beforehand, Arvis played the whole lands for fools, strategically pinning blame to cause infighting and confusion — and then having lords of these lands murdered so he could claim them across Judgral. He orchestrated and committed these wide-scale atrocities as one step to unite the world.
However, ruthless he may be, Arvis had a limit, and we see it firsthand in Gen 2 once Sigurd's son, Seliph, tries to right all the wrongs. Arvis eventually realized that he had all along been manipulated by Manfroy, and attempted to atone for this sin by preventing as many casualties in the child hunting as he could. Furthermore, he made sure Seliph could find the legendary Tyrfing for the final battle. Finally, Arvis even accepts death by Seliph's hands, letting him avenge his father 17 years prior.
So, yes, Arvis's methods were horrible, but his goals were admirable and his standards clear.
Conclusion?
Can't say anything but yes.
A cruel, sick joke is still a joke, and sometimes all you can do is laugh.
Arvis is a tough one for me. His waving Deirdre in Sigurd's face is so unbelievably fucking petty and callous, and he spends so much time as Manfloy's puppet, but he does break free at the end, do the right thing and regains control at the final moment....tough call.
I think I'm going to say yes in the end. His subverting Manfloy, saving the children and delivering Celice the Tyrfing to end the war and destroy Julius is what seals him for me, even if I really despise him for the thing with Deirdre.
Btw, I should note something for everyone: Deidre is essentially forced to be a party to her own rape. She and Arvis are half siblings, and their bloodlines are necessary to birth Julius for the Loptur sect. Manfloy forcibly wipes her mind and memories of her husband and child and takes her to be found by Arvis as an amnesiac. Arvis knows nothing of this and genuinely falls in love with, and marries her, which Deirdre reciprocates. Of all the nastiness there, it's Manfloy's doing.
Edited by Lightysnake on Jul 17th 2018 at 7:49:10 AM
Frolaytia X Qwenthur of Heavy Object
To Big Ar.
Why should I have to cut something when I've already got that done.
In fact, I've said I would purge them.
Edited by MasterJoseph on Jul 17th 2018 at 7:55:24 AM
IPP Wick Check created.
for Arvis
What about this entry on Middle-earth: Shadow of Mordor.
- Magnificent Bastard: Talion and Celebrimbor can be this. They use a combination of stealth tactics, terrorism, poisoning, subterfuge, sleeper agents, plus outright sorcery to slow Sauron's progress through Mordor to a halt. Of course, they can also just stab things in the face.
Cut or keep and why?
EDIT: ![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
Do you want to EP Celebrimbor Lighty since you know about this game and its sequel? (you EP Sauron from both on the CM forum)
Edited by G-Editor on Jul 17th 2018 at 5:03:14 AM
might be able to keep Celebrimbor
The way I see it, if a character is excessively sadistic for little to no reason and enjoys it, it compromises their Magnificent Bastardry. Bondrewd... doesn't really strike me like this. Just my thoughts, though.