Good Job on the OP. Thank you for doing a wick check. Opened.
Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
Red Like Santa
The Unknown
Which one would more likely involve getting a Token Evil Teammate? Hazy Face Turn?
Just trying to get a feel for these.
edited 14th Jan '16 12:07:13 AM by Karxrida
If a tree falls in the forest and nobody remembers it, who else will you have ice cream with?
Honestly, I think rather than just making a couple of hard to distinguish tropes, we should make the supertrope Switch Sides and have it cover all the weird variations.
Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
That might make more sense. It does seem like most of the issues come from people just putting in every turn that doesn't quite fit as a Heel–Face Turn or Face–Heel Turn.
Am I a weirdo?
We should make the supertrope anyway, no matter what we plan on doing with the subtropes.
Both of the proposed subtropes just feel to hazy for the casual troper to be able to use well, which is generally the sign of a bad trope. I think Switch Sides will get us everything we want from them without getting bogged down too much in endless alignment arguments. Those always end poorly.
Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
I hope it's okay to post here even though it's a couple months later...
I came across this trope, and it feels like it's one of those things where having this discussion is sort of missing the point of a lot of the works in question.
This is based on the assumption that if two sides are opposed, one must be good and the other must be bad, and it's necessary to pin down which is which. That's just not accurate.
K is a good example of why, actually. The character in question joined his first alignment (red) with a friend who took to their culture really well. He didn't. Then he meets the leader of the blue side, and they click really well, so he joins blue. The red and blue aren't really opposed, really. They do the same thing, more or less - supernatural enforcement - and they fight each other a lot because their methods conflict (if we're talking about alignment, blue is more "lawful good" and red is "chaotic neutral"). The concepts of "good and bad" don't really apply to their conflict - they don't even see it that way. Except for the aforementioned exes, they actually get along fairly well between the sides, and their respective heads, seconds-in-command, and thirds are shipped together in ways more likely canon than not (the thirds are the aforementioned exes who are clearly not staying ex, and do make up in the end of season 2). Also, they're both opposed to the actual main characters in the first season (who are falsely accused of a murder) and the three sides are allied in the second season.
The existence of this trope is as if you're not letting any of these stories grow out of the idea of "faces" and "heels" - it's almost like saying grey morality is a plot hole. Moving side-switches under one heading and not separating out good->bad and bad->good is a better way. It's more supportive of works that want to let readers decide for themselves, or better, encourage readers to like both, as K does.
I made this Idolized Julius Kingsley icon back when Akito first came out, and now that the crossover is actually happening, I don't care.
Dread Sorcerer of Auchtermuchty
another vote for Switch Sides, partially influenced by the Wall of Text above me. Which has a vote for Switch Sides hidden at the end of the text:
edited 30th Apr '16 9:35:41 AM by TheOneWhoTropes
Keeper of The Celestial Flame
I still think Switch Sides is what we want here. A supertrope with no moral judgement, since not all sides are good and evil.
Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
How sweet it is
I'll make it another vote for Switch Sides.
she/her | TRS needs your help! | Contributor of Trope Report
Isn't the "changes sides regardless of moral allignment" Super-Trope already covered by Turncoat?
edited 1st May '16 6:28:51 AM by Morgenthaler
You've got roaming bands of armed, aggressive, tyrannical plumbers coming to your door, saying "Use our service, or else!"
It should be, but that word has a lot of negative connotations that show up in how it's actually used. As a result, it doesn't get used for anything amicable, and the definition focuses too much on it being done for self interest. It's one of those cases where the connotations in English are enough to skew the trope use. It also carries that connotation of backstabbing your old group on the way out.
It's one of those cases where the connotations in English are forcing a more narrow definition. As a result, a Turncoat is a traitor who stabs you in the back for their own self interest. But you don't end up with more amicable cases of people who Switch Sides listed.
edited 1st May '16 9:45:23 AM by shimaspawn
Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
Honestly that is what I was thinking before I clicked the trope. Could probably rename that to Switched Sides and make it more clear that Heel–Face Turn is a Good To Evil switch and all the rest of that family of tropes too.
Heel–Face Revolving Door is also a problem since many of those just switch for the money and such.
edited 1st May '16 9:48:44 AM by Memers
No, I think we need a trope for Turncoat that is focused on stabbing your friends on the way out. I just don't think it's good for it to be trying to be the supertrope for Switch Sides at the same time. There isn't always a side that the Turncoat is turning to other than for or against the people he just betrayed. What it needs is a definition that captures the traitorous connotations better.
edited 1st May '16 9:50:46 AM by shimaspawn
Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
The Unknown
I agree with the rename to something more neutral, but Switching Sides > Switch Sides.
edited 1st May '16 10:21:00 AM by Karxrida
If a tree falls in the forest and nobody remembers it, who else will you have ice cream with?
Chair Man
So um, are we renaming Turn Coat to Switching Sides?
MAX POWER KILL JEEEEEEEEWWWWW
I would vote to change Turn Coat to "Switching Sides" and make it a super-trope for all these. I agree that "turn coat" has a negative connotation, but the actual content of the page doesn't currently denote that.
"a character in a work with unambiguous morality switches sides without switching alignments, i.e. a villain joins the hero's team but remains evil."
That'd be Reformed, but Not Tamed, right?
edited 6th Jan '17 5:50:40 PM by Getta
We don't need justice when we can forgive. We don't need tolerance when we can love.
So... are we making the Switching Sides supertrope or what?
I made this Idolized Julius Kingsley icon back when Akito first came out, and now that the crossover is actually happening, I don't care.
Perhaps turn Heel/Face Index into an actual supertrope for changing sides. Making a new trope for that is redundant, yeah?
We don't need justice when we can forgive. We don't need tolerance when we can love.
I personally think the idea of side changes not clearly demonstrating a character's current morality is a perfectly viable trope. I just think Hazy-Feel Turn needs to have its purpose more clearly communicated. And I agree with the guy above that Switching Sides is redundant. (And honestly sounds kinda bland.). For that matter, I don't think a Super-Trope is that good of an idea either if that's how you want to represent this idea. Unclear changes in long term morality and alignment are common enough to warrant its own trope. Nixing this and dumping all the correct examples into the super trope could blur things even more. I say we should first clear out the blatantly incorrect uses and put a trope misuse statement in the main page and then look into a super trope.
That's my say on the matter.
Clock is ticking.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
The "not-changing-alignment" is covered under Fake Defector and Heel Face Mole, no? So why not just clean up Hazy-Feel Turn and be done?
Hazy-Feel Turn is defined as when somebody switches sides in a work with Grey-and-Gray Morality, i.e. they make a turn but it's impossible to say whether it's a turn for good or evil. However, it's very often misused for when a character in a work with unambiguous morality switches sides without switching alignments, i.e. a villain joins the hero's team but remains evil.
Wicks: Correct:
Misuse:
Unclear:
As you can see, it seems to be misused about half the time. There is also significant misuse on the page itself. I propose that we redefine it to match with the most common misused definition and split off the original trope with a name like "Ambiguous Side Turn."