Cleaning & Reorganizing Weaponry Tropes:

That doesn't really work as an argument. That could be used with any number of normal weapons in real life and they would still be tropes.

IE: Because guns are a boring common generic weapon and not at all interesting on their own.

I think the fact that there is such thing as "Generic fantasy weapons" is pretty interesting.

Rhymes with "Protracted."

One guy has his interpretation about what a trope is, then another says that it's wrong and says what his interpretation is. In the end they want a trope to suit their own tastes best.

It's rather funny seeing you people... I wonder, would even trope's very definition be decided by consesus building?

That aside, maybe I have to bug you once again that having weaponry is ultimately Garnishing the Story. About what King Zeal said about "not all tropes are created equal", well, maybe GTS is one prime example of it...

MAX POWER KILL JEEEEEEEEWWWWW

If anything, we should come up with an index titled that... it would save us a lot of time if we knew what was considered a "generic fantasy weapon" and what isn't...

Impossibly Cool Weapon and Mix-and-Match Weapon are examples of how a weapon's mere existence in the story can be inherently noteworthy. Ordinary axes and guns do not qualify for any such tropes.

edited 2nd Dec '14 5:36:53 PM by MrL1193

@Solip: Not really arguing against you, just clarifying.

@KJ: It's not a trope. It's a collection of tropes. Small Girl Big Weapon is a trope. Smart Guy Brute Weapon is a trope. Spare Weapon is a trope. Just because we don't have a page for them doesn't mean they're not tropes. It just means no one has written those pages. "Because people will shoehorn them in somewhere" is not an argument for why it's a trope. Missing Supertrope Syndrome isn't a sure-fire way of finding a trope. Sometimes it just isn't a trope, because not everything is a trope. Even if it often appears in fiction.

"There are details to it" doesn't mean it's a trope. The more those details differ, the more it's clear you're not talking about a trope, since it's not a pattern. It's just a random collection of non-specific details. I mean, I could list a lot of details about what makes chairs differ from couches, stools, benches, and other stuff you can sit on, but that doesn't make sitting on a chair a trope.

Try actually saying what giving an axe to a character means for the story. Not just "it implies character traits", "it has a visual look", or "it adds details". What, specifically, does it mean? What traits? What look? What details?

@DAN: It would be Garnishing the Story if it was someplace where you wouldn't expect axes. Otherwise they're just there because they're supposed to be there. If it's in a modern story, and a character enters a toolshed to pick a weapon, picking an axe is often one of the more sensible actions, so it doesn't fit there either.

edited 2nd Dec '14 5:47:13 PM by AnotherDuck

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Off the top of my head, the Top 5 Most Generic Fantasy Weapons:

• Sword: Jack of All Stats and the #1 most generic weapon. The standard by which all other weapons are measured.
• Axe: Bigger and stronger than swords. Favored by muscular barbarian types (and dwarves).
• Dagger: Light and easily concealed. Favored by thieves and scoundrels.
• Staff: Invariably magical and used by wizards. See also: wands.
• Bow: The archetypal ranged weapon. Favored by archers, who always seem to have the same tall, lean silhouette.

The kind of axe you find in a tool shed really doesn't belong in the same trope as a battleaxe. They're like completely different.

edited 2nd Dec '14 6:06:49 PM by troacctid

Rhymes with "Protracted."

Most generic weapon in real history: The spear. By far.

Also, funny thing, a bow is much more physically demanding than a sword. Not so in fiction.

That's what I'm saying. Different tropes.

edited 2nd Dec '14 7:27:46 PM by AnotherDuck

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Yeah, pole arms are also pretty generic fantasy weapons. The specific type doesn't so much matter so much as its a long stick with a point bit.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick

Speaking of pole arms, poleaxes are another type of axes that are treated somewhat differently from the more typical axes. They also tend to be more realistically sized, which may or may not have to do with how they're among the largest axes you find in real life.

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But that's the funny thing. Take an ax and give it to a Viking, you get a Barbarian Ax trope. Take the exact same ax and give it to a little girl, you get a Small Girl Big Weapon. It's the Kuleshov Effect, changing one detail can have a dramatic effect on how the audience perceives something. Because of that I'm more inclined to believe the ax is the trope and not the person who uses it, you can change the character and the ax remains the same.

And I'll go right back to the Badass Longcoat analogy, most of the visual tropes have little to do with the character other than "this looks cool" or "this looks distinctive." To lock it down that a visual element only has the purpose of informing the character is severely limiting the possibilities.

Then I'll go back to the blonde hair analogy. Give blonde hair to a ditzy girl, and you have Dumb Blonde. Give the same blonde hair to a kind and loving princess, and you have Hair of Gold, Heart of Gold. That doesn't make blonde hair a trope. It's the combination that makes the trope, which is what the Kuleshov Effect is actually about.

And "this looks cool" is a specific definition. It adds to coolness, which is an aspect of badassery. It's not a Badass Longcoat if it's worn by a posh girl in high heels who'd turn into a Damsel in Distress at the drop of a hat. Wearing a longcoat isn't by itself a trope. Much like using an axe by itself isn't a trope.

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Duck said what I was going to say about combinations. It's the people and the axes together that form those tropes, not just one or the other.

Also, we've already explained several times over that rejecting People Sit On Chairs as a trope does not in any way limit the number of possible chair tropes. If you think there are some we're missing, it's up to you to identify and propose them.

And that goes right back to the fact that blond hair is not distinctive unless paired with the character. An ax is distinctive, just like Badass Longcoat. Hell, that page specifically says "this is about the coat, not the character" and says that examples need to describe what the coat looks like. You can have an item just be an item, that means exactly what the item means, and not have to make it "useful" by assigning something else to it.

...boy, this is really going around in circles.

Truth is, especially after all this, I don't see the weapon tropes clean up going anywhere with the attitude that the weapons have to be split into a dozen other tropes to work. Each trope needs to be made through ykttw and ALL of the wicks need to be deleted or fixed. It's creating extra work (that would likely never be done) without actually addressing the problem, that of Zero Context Examples. What I'm proposing is leaving the trope names alone and rewrite them to be about describing the weapon and how it is used in a story, then a long term project to trim away the examples that are "x uses y."

The trope is Badass Longcoat, not Longcoat. Badass Axe would be a trope if it were a pattern. Brute Axe is a trope. Axe is like longcoat is like blonde hair. Brute Axe is like Badass Longcoat is like Dumb Blonde.

You can't equate something that has one specific meaning in all instances of the trope with something that has several discrete meanings depending on the nature of the situation.

How distinctive an axe is depends on the situation, just like blonde hair. A blonde character in the deepest Africa, distinctive. A blonde character where I live, not so distinctive. An axe where everyone else uses swords, distinctive. An axe where every type of weapon is present and is handed out to the first best person, not so distinctive. An axe is not inherently distinctive.

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Okay, call the trope Awesome Ax, Badass Ax, Cool Ax or Nice Ax. How has anything I've said changed?

The fact that a Cool Axe has extra information beyond just being an axe.

You might be hung up on the distinction between "A thing that is virtually always used as a trope" and "A thing that could not possibly ever not be that trope."

Even if a character wielding an axe in combat was virtually always a Cool Axe, and I'm not saying it would be, that doesn't totally preclude the possibility that an example of an axe wielder might not be an example of a Cool Axe.

In other words, just because "Character X fights with an axe" probably fits as a Cool Axe, you still need context. You still need to provide an explanation of exactly why it's a Cool Axe. Not all axes are cool; simply stating that a character is using an axe does not make it a Cool Axe.

The point I've been trying to make is that the ax itself can be interesting. Everyone else is arguing that the ax has to mean something about the character in order to be a valid trope. Context is something filled in by the examples.

An ax trope will need to be defined narrowly and precisely in order to not attract misuse. And anyhow, I don't think the current tropes make a good seed for such a trope.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

I like the above ideas of something like Brutal Axe or, yes, indeed, even the generic Cool Axe, because the adjective at least gives you something to orient on. An Axe To Grind is just a pun, and the "Grind" is pretty meaningless, considering that I doubt many (if any) of the examples are of anyone "grinding" their axe. (Yes, I know I'm being overly literal, but you can't deny the rampant misuse, and I believe it's at least partially because the word "Grind" in the title doesn't really give you much to work with.)

Just like with all the Our X Are Different tropes, the name itself encourages tropers to explain what makes it different. Brutal Axe would discourage "X uses an axe" examples and instead encourage people to explain exactly what makes the use "brutal". Likewise with other prospective "Adjective Axe" titles.

edited 3rd Dec '14 11:24:24 AM by SolipSchism

It's not about being brutal. Not necessarily. That's not the trope.

Can we at least agree that axes not designed as weapons don't belong in this trope? Because they definitely don't. They're very different.

Rhymes with "Protracted."

We've established (mostly) that if axes are going to be a trope, it needs to be more than just "Axes". Possibly multiple tropes (e.g. Brutal Axe, Small Girl Giant Axe, Fireman Fights With Axe, etc., whatever). The red links I used were just stand-ins, I'm not saying that's what they should be.

I am saying that the name should encourage better context, though. I think most Adjective Axe names would fit the bill nicely.

It's not about the character wielding the axe either. Axes have a consistent portrayal in media regardless of who carries them. The trope is about the weapon, not the wielder.

Look at grandaddy Dungeons And Dragons. In both 3rd and 4th edition, axes have the largest damage dice, rolling d12s and d10s instead of d8s and d6s, and deal bonus damage on a Critical Hit. And this sort of thing shows up in other games too. Rune Scape's battleaxes have a higher damage stat than swords, but also a slower attack speed. Skyrim has the same paradigm: stronger but slower compared to swords. Likewise in Dark Souls, where a battleaxe or greataxe can do more damage than a lighter weapon but takes longer to swing. Dungeons Of Dredmor's Axes skill improves your critical hit chance and gives you a 20% chance on top of that to deal bonus damage on every attack—as opposed to, say, Swords, which has counterattack bonuses mixed in and whose damage buffs are smaller but proc more reliably.

I could go on, but the point is, axes are consistently portrayed as weapons that sacrifice finesse for power. And that's totally independent of the character who holds them. The trope is in the item.

Rhymes with "Protracted."

Whatever, you're missing my point and I'm starting to think you're doing it on purpose. All I'm saying is that the title should encourage better context in the same way that "Our X Are Different" tropes do. My suggestion is some form of Adjective Axe, or similar titles that say something about the axe, not just that it's there.

Also: Everything you just said is completely valid. It's also all completely glossed over by Axes. That's why Brutal Axe would work. It implies brute strength without finesse, which is pretty much what you're describing: They're slower and less precise, but they're stronger.

edited 3rd Dec '14 1:14:54 PM by SolipSchism

Saying axes are often portrayed as slower and more strong weapons that sacrifice finesse for power is a huge leap forward in this discussion. Not that vague stuff about "being significant" or "having a visual look". Actually describing how they're used is what I've asked about for a long time now.

"Can" is not the word you've been using. "Is" is what you've used. "An ax is distinctive". "A character using an ax IS a trope."

No one has said it's false that axes can be interesting.

No. It can mean something about itself. Something specific, like being slow and powerful. That means something.

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