Ensemble Dark Horse Cleanup

Migos tries to claim that all three members of the group are an Ensemble Dark Horse:

• Ensemble Dark Horse: All 3 members are darkhorses in their own way:
  • Quavo is one for generally having the best hooks, his use of Auto-Tune, and mainstream appeal.
  • Offset is one for his use of the triplet flow and ad-libs. Also, he has the most well received solo output (Without Warning, Father of 4)
  • Takeoff is one due to his often hilarious demeanor in interviews, and being left off of their most popular song.

The only one I think that could maybe count is Takeoff, as before his tragic death he was generally seen as the third wheel of the group. Should I leave that in and cut Quavo and Offset?

ED is NRLEP. IDK if bands can count.

My understanding is that members of a band do not count, only material in the songs/albums themselves can qualify.

Cut as ED only applies to minor characters, so all of the band members cannot count.

@Crossover-Enthusiast: Clodsire was first added by MagisterFlopsy but moved back by CorvusIX. The Ninetails line has it's original and regional variants listed separately as well so there's that.

I think bands could count in the cases of larger ensembles where there are some members who could be considered less important than others. Bassists and/or drummers could count when they are not being recognized as being as important as the singer or whoever else that would be the official/semi-official Face Of The Band, especially if they have few to no songwriting credits alongside the more important members.

In terms of larger vocal groups (with more than five members), it could be members who have noticeably fewer lines than more "important" members. Groups and solo artists may have session musicians and touring members who are valued despite not being important enough to be "official" members.

Basically, I think bands might count depending on group sizes and roles in productions and performances.

Since Migos is a group of three, they probably wouldn't count, especially if somehow every member is considered a dark horse.

Edited by AnotherOnlinePersona on Jan 17th 2023 at 8:16:18 AM

Band members aren't fictional characters though, they're real people, and EDH is no real examples.

Bands would only count if there's a Kayfabe element, I assume.

Wait this means we should probably cut a lot of Saturday Night Live then too, right? There are several cast members and hosts listed, but sometimes SNL does have their cast members lean into Adam Westing. Like Kyle Mooney basically had his own recurring As Himself sketch, so maybe something like that would count, but not the actual actor.

Edited by mightymewtron on Jan 18th 2023 at 3:50:06 PM

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/EnsembleDarkhorse/Pokemon

This page has several problems, particularly under the Anime section. Gary and Miette are listed as Ensemble Darkhorses and Base-Breaking Characters when those labels should be mutually exclusive. Furthermore, I question the inclusion of Gary even if he was universally beloved. Given Gary was Ash's main rival for two generations I don't feel he's a minor enough character to qualify as an Ensemble Dark Horse.

For the same reasons, I question Zoey's inclusion as the only humans with more spotlight than her in Diamond & Pearl are the twerps and Paul who was Ash's main rival. Finally, I feel Cassidy and Butch's Villain Decay and from Chronicles onward along with them quitting Team Rocket by the time of Journeys has moved them into Base-Breaking territory.

Any feedback on my previous post or can I go ahead and start cutting?

Yeah, there's a lot wrong with the Pokemon page. It has Professor Oak listed, for some reason. How on Earth is he an ED when he's literally the first character you meet?

The main Ensemnble Darkhorse Page doesn't make it clear how minor a character needs to be to qualify. And also we need to consider how Pokemon factor into things. As while the cast owns Pokemon and there are always fan favorites sometimes those favorites are the ones most used like Wobbufett, Sceptile, and Infernape. So should ANY main character's Pokemon be allowed?

Any ideas on if Main Character's Pokemon should be allowed? after all aren't they main characters too?

Edited by Mariofan99 on Feb 5th 2023 at 9:10:55 AM

YMMV.Spider Man Into The Spiderverse

• Ensemble Dark Horse:
  • The Prowler and Doc Ock seem to have gotten quite a lot of fan love. The former for being an intimidating and cool antagonist with actual redeeming qualities and a surprisingly tragic death, while the latter is seen as a fantastic take on a classic Spidey villain, combining an attractive design with equal parts wit and menace.
  • Spider-Man Noir is very popular for being an homage to detective movies and having a Batman like synopsis and storyline.
  • Peni Parker is this for anime fans. You'll find a ton of art depicting her, and Wikia noted search results and page hits for her exploded thanks to the trailer.
  • Spider-Ham gained a huge recognition for not only being an homage to various characters from the Golden Age of Animation and being voiced by John Mulaney but also surprisingly delivering one of the deepest, profound yet heartbreaking lines in the film, therefore establishing him as a three-dimensional character as opposed to just a comic relief character.
  • This film's incarnation of Aunt May is one of her most popular portrayals, as she gets to take an active role in helping the Spider-Gang because she knew about her nephew's secret identity and was able to maintain his base of operations. She also gets points for holding her own in fending off villains and for her implied relationship with Doc Ock.

I think all of these except for Aunt May are too major of characters to qualify for this trope. I also feel like that six (with two sharing one entry for some reason) ensemble darkhorses in a single movie seems kind of peculiar.

Edited by PlasmaPower on Feb 7th 2023 at 5:54:40 AM

I agree. Prowler and Doc Ock are major antagonists, and the Spider-Gang is marketed as main characters despite their somewhat limited screen time.

Surely "more prominent in the marketing than their screen-time suggests" is a point in favour of EDH, not against?

Regarding that point on Ensemble shows would Pokemon owned by main characters be ineligble

The movie is still pushing them as main characters in the promotions, despite not appearing until the second half, so I'd say they have enough prominence to not qualify for Ed.

For the page https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/EnsembleDarkHorse/Pokemon I take issues with these entries:

• Butch and Cassidy are generally well-received for their roles as Jessie and James' more competent rivals, and for Butch's continuously being misnamed. It's up to the point where their long-awaited return in Journeys was widely celebrated on Twitter. But when their appearances turned out to be brief, with no flashbacks delving into their ambitions, in favor of another "Trio considers leaving Team Rocket but stays" story, the reactions became mixed. The fact that Butch and Cassidy had left the organization doesn't help matters.

Butch and Cassidy underwent a large popularity drop thanks to their Flanderization and Villain Decay in Pokémon Chronicles I'd say they fit more under Base-Breaking Character

• Misty's Psyduck and Jessie's Wobbuffet, two very similar, dopey Pokémon who just won't stay in their Poké Balls. When Wobbuffet was Put on a Bus in Best Wishes, the show later made a fan poll asking which Team Rocket Pokémon they'd like to return. It was no surprise that Wobbuffet won and make its return in XY, while the latter would eventually return in the Sun and Moon episodes where Ash reunites with Misty and Brock and becomes even more popular, thanks to it having Took a Level in Badass.

These entries shouldn't be grouped. Wobbufett seems closer to a Breakout Character given his long tenure. I'm unsure if a Pokemon as prominent as Psyduck counts as Ensemble Dark Horse given he was always meant to be one of the main Pokemon. The same issue applies to Brock's Crogunk.

The Kalos Anime Section also lists Squishy aka Zygarde (Big Good) and Lysandre (Big Bad). While Lysandre's entry does list his lack of screentime, Hunter J was removed for being "too important". So either Lysandre needs to go or J needs to come back

As for two I'm unsure if they fit or not:

Bayleaf is listed despite being the closest thing Ash had to Ace on his Johto team. Though given this was before the concepts of Aces were solidified (with most of Ash's major Johto victories coming from Pikachu and Charizard) I can see an argument for her staying.

Also, Miette is listed. This one is tricky as you could make an argument for her being Serena's main rival thus disqualifying her (such as how Gary and Zoey had their entries removed). However, people have also made the case that Serena's main rival was either Shauna or Aria so I don't know if Miette should stay or go

Edited by Mariofan99 on Feb 17th 2023 at 10:00:26 AM

The YMMV page for Dishonored lists Daud as an Ensemble Dark Horse, as detailed below;

• Daud is popular enough that he got his own Downloadable Content. Despite killing the Empress, then leaving Corvo to take fall, leading to the game's plot, and by all metrics being the one character you should really want to kill, Daud ends up being a very fascinating character with a guilty conscience for his actions. Add that to his own moveset that allows him to fight Corvo on even footing and you get a pretty riveting, climactic boss battle.

Here's the thing though; Daud's the secondary antagonist, by virtue of being The Heavy, of the main game and, as the edit alludes to, goes on to become a Player Character in the first game's Downloadable Content.

Misuse?

Edited by WiryAiluropodine on Feb 19th 2023 at 6:02:09 AM

If a character is that important to the plot, he absolutely is not an Ensemble Dark Horse.

In that case should ANY Pokemon owned by main characters be on the Ensemble Darkhorse page? For example every one of Ash's Pokemon has won him at least ONE important battle (except for Primape and the ones he only owned for a single episode)

The "main characters" rule prohibits characters who are central to the plot overall being an EDH, because those are the characters one would expect to be popular. It does not say "can't have a moment in the spotlight", "can't join the hero for one battle" or anything like that.

You are trying to turn this into more of a forum game, and that is damaging its worth as a trope.

sorry. I just wanted to figure out what could qualify. Its just blurry with Pokemon characters since some get more focus than others

I'll copy what I posted in my queue since I was told to take it to trope talk:

A rule is that an Ensemble Dark Horse can't be a main character or even a major supporting character in order to qualify as the trope is about more minor characters getting beloved. So how does this apply to Pokémon: The Series where all the main characters catch Pokemon? About 90% of Pokemon the Twerps capture are plot important in a significant way.

For example, the fact none of Ash's regional aces (basically his strongest and most prominent capture in each series) appear on the Ensemble Dark Horse list tells me that they are considered too plot important/major to include. Yet we have entries for Misty's Psyduck (Misty's most prominent Pokemon aside from the now-released Togetic), Brock's Crogunk (Brock's main Pokemon in Sinnoh onward), and Jessie's Wobbufett (the third most prominent Pokemon in the entire anime behind Pikachu and Meowth).

What is the determining factor for when a Pokemon is too prominent to include? For example, would any trainer's first capture (like Butterfree for Ash or Buneary for Dawn) be eligible? They're ALL main characters either they should all be allowed or none of them should be to me.

Oh, uh, by trope talk we mean this forum. It's where we hash our definitions and whether or not there are problems.