HoYay clean up

The Ho Yay page needs serious clean up.

There's been a split that declares anything on Ho Yay as YMMV and everything on Homoerotic Subtext is confirmed in-universe or by Word of God, but it doesn't seem to have done much in helping to get some system back into Ho Yay.

So I think what needs to be done is the following:

1) Move any and everything that is confirmed as homoerotic subtext in-universe to Homoerotic Subtext. In-universe confirmation should be explicit or extremely obvious. Generally, this means someone unfamiliar with the work in question should be able to notice.

2) Move everything confirmed by Word of God to Homoerotic Subtext. If there are contradicting statements either by different people or about different addaptions, exercise caution.

3) There are examples where a homoerotic or homoromantic subtext has been accepted as a valid reading by academics or professionals, while there is neither Word of God no in-universe confirmation. If confirmation is impossible to obtain, leave them as Ho Yay for now, there'll be time to sort them out later yet.

Now, there's another problem with Ho Yay, seperate from this. Ho Yay should not contain examples of Real People. However, judging by the lenght of the Music subpage, I don't think it would be wise to simply delete them, as it would probably not go over too well. So what I think we should clean it up and decide what to do once we can see what's left.

1) If a musician has come out as gay, lesbian, bisexual, omnisexual, bisexual or non-straight in any other way, they don't belong on that page. Remove those examples.

2) Everything that has been confirmed as Stage Gay goes to Faux Yay.

3) Remove all ZeroContextExamples and all non-specific examples. If an example doesn't name a musician or band and a confirmed incident or situtaion, remove it.

4) Get whatever is left into some rough semblance of order, so that it is easier to decide where to go from there, be it fixing it completely or giving up on it completely.

5) Maybe make some sort of seperate page or trope for musicians being aware and interacting with slash fandom.

I know that that's a lot of work for a page that probably shouldn't exist in the first place, but I fear that simply removing it without further consideration might generate quite a bit of anger I would rather avoid.

If you have other suggestions or opinions, please share.

edited 17th Dec '12 5:28:24 AM by Ianto

Yeah, there needs to be a lot of cleanup.

Take, for example, this page: HoYay.Doctor Who. One of the listed items (under Jack Harkness' folder) is a gay sex scene. Somehow, I doubt the writers didn't think that would be gay. That's the worst of it, but a lot of them are very intentional. Others seem to be Gay Bravado.

I'm tackling HoYay.Doctor Who now. There seem to be three types of examples:

• Canon bi/homosexual relationships and/or characters — Homoerotic text
• Word of God / lampshaded homoerotic situations
• Speculation about same-sex characters who are close

Only the last of these is Ho Yay. Does everything else belong in Homoerotic Subtext? The Homoerotic Subtext trope page says it "does not cover any Ship Teases or actual homoerotism". I'm guessing almost all of Captain Jack's interactions belong in Ship Tease. What of his heavily lampshaded crush on the Doctor?

The Queer as Tropes index also defines Homoerotic Subtext as "gay subtext without either character being gay", which is most certainly wrong.

Part of the problem seems to come from the trope definitions. I'm going to add a note in Ho Yay: "For intentional examples that are lampshaded or confirmed by Word of God, see Homoerotic Subtext". Sound okay?

Finally, it's likely we'll need to split Homoerotic Subtext into subpages to cope with all the misplaced examples from Ho Yay.

Edit: made Sandbox.Ho Yay Cleanup and Sandbox.Homoerotic Subtext Cleanup

edited 2nd Jul '14 10:54:20 AM by LongLiveHumour

All excellent ideas and points.

HoYay.Ouran High School Host Club... I'm thinking of cutting it and moving valid examples to the YMMV page. The series is incredibly self-aware, and almost every single one of the examples were certainly deliberate by the creators, if not by the characters themselves.

Any thoughts?

The entries involving the twins, Mori/Hani, and Haruhi are certainly not examples, so I cut those. I think there's still enough entry to be its own page, but I haven't touched the series for years, so I'm not sure if those remaining stuffs are legit.

Kasanoda is the only one I'm sure of.

Kyoya and Kaoru might count... that does seem like an accidental Ship Tease.

But there's no way Tamaki and Kyoya is accidental. It's not intentional In-Universe like the Twins or Honey/Mori, but it's intentional by the author.

Does anyone watch Glee?

I'd imagine almost all of the examples on HoYay.Glee are intentional, including the image. But I don't know the work so I can't remove anything.

What about HoYay.Yuru Yuri?

Speaking of works with "Yuri" in the title... HoYay.Yuri On Ice.

Seriously, I'm down to cut the page. The lion's share of the entries are about the Official Couple.

If the title is anything to go by, most of that page can safely go under Homoerotic Subtext or Ship Tease.

Yuri On Ice is about a gay couple, ironically. One of the characters is named Yuri.

I'd move the whole thing to Homoerotic Subtext but... does that really count? Like I said, they list the Official Couple there. One of the entries is "they got engaged."

That's not Ho Yay, that's not Homoerotic Subtext, that's just... nothing.

Ship Tease maybe. All of the Korrasami are also moved to that page.

edited 8th Dec '16 12:07:32 PM by RAlexa21th

Does it count as a Ship Tease after they get together, though?

I don't think it does any harm to outright lose examples like that. That's just silly.

Well, that's what happened to The Legend of Korra...

Oops, somebody already mentioned that.

edited 8th Dec '16 6:20:48 PM by N1KF

Question: If Bob is confirmed to be in love with Charlie, but Charlie doesn't explicitly return Bob's feelings, does it count as Ho Yay?

Because the Ho Yay pages for Mirai Nikki, Neon Genesis Evangelion and Super Dangan Ronpa 2 all contain examples of such couplings, of which one person in each has been confirmed to have at least a onesided love for the other - be it by outright text such as a kiss (in Mirai Nikki's case) or by Word of Gay (in NGE and Danganronpa's case).

edited 26th Feb '17 6:22:33 PM by Psychedelicate

I'd say if Charlie is explicitly not gay, but has some accidentally homoerotic/shippy scenes with Bob, it'd count.

That said, I find it unlikely there would be Ho Yay and far more likely for there to be Homoerotic Subtext since that would be impressively blind of the creator.

edited 27th Feb '17 10:31:31 AM by Larkmarn

Right. Ho Yay is something that exists only in the minds of fans. If the creator intends it, it's Homoerotic Subtext.

Alright, I see. So would that mean that all Ho Yay examples of Kaworu, Akise and Nagito making advances on their respective male love interests will have to go, but any signs of said love interests possibly reciprocating can stay?

edited 27th Feb '17 1:44:17 PM by Psychedelicate

The former most definitely, the latter must go if the writer genuinely didn't mean there to be any Homoerotic Subtext.

Keep in mind there can be intentional Homoerotic Subtext with a totally straight character.

Alright, noted

I'm still midway through both NGE and SDR 2, and I don't want to accidentally spoil myself on either, so I think when I get home I'll have a crack at scrubbung HoYay.Mirai Nikki clean.

Ianto, Great suggestion. I agree.

Should HoYay.Yuki Yuna Is A Hero and HoYay.Sound Euphonium be fixed? The former involves a canonically gay character and the latter... Reina and Kumiko are more in the leagues of Hide Your Lesbians or Bait-and-Switch Lesbians. The writers knew what they were doing; they're too blatant.

Edit: Moved the Yuna/Togo section to Homoerotic Subtext, but I'm unsure about the Sound Euphonium page.

edited 22nd Jun '18 6:27:28 PM by Pichu-kun

Trying to clean up the main Anime page is hard.

• Attack on Titan:
  • Ymir is in love with Krista, but it isn't clear if her feelings are returned (though if later chapters are any indication, Krista cares a lot more about Ymir than for anyone else, herself included, and even states she doesn't care where she is or what sort of state the world is in, so long as she's with Ymir).
    • May be the only canon relationship in the manga according to producer George Wada

Probably Ship Tease then?

• A Certain Scientific Railgun's main Ho Yay moments are mostly restricted to Mikoto being openly molested by Schoolgirl Lesbian Kuroko (...)

Yeah, that's not Ho Yay then. I don't know where it'd go, though.

The Higurashi and Umineko examples are just full of confusion.

• Depraved Homosexual Jakotsu from Inuyasha has a crush on Inuyasha, flirts with Miroku and Sesshoumaru, and has some subtext with his friend Bankotsu.

Then that's not Ho Yay.

• Michiko Malandro from Michiko to Hatchin has quite an intense encounter with Elis, one of the ex-girlfriends of her former boyfriend, culminating in a kiss that leaves little to the imagination.

Homoerotic Subtext?

• Serial Experiments Lain: Alice's attitude toward Lain involves a slight romantic tint.
  • Lain's confession of love in the penultimate episode make her feelings fairly clear.
  • The anime toes the line between text and subtext with a lot of Lain and Alice's relationship, but it's hard to read Lain deleting herself from existence for Alice's peace of mind, arranging things so that she can marry her high school crush, and spending eternity watching over her from the Wired in a way other than I Want My Beloved to Be Happy.

I just watched the anime a few months ago but it's so mindscrewy that I don't know where to put it. Homoerotic Subtext?

edited 22nd Jun '18 5:40:03 AM by Pichu-kun