Is this an example?

- Well, just learned that the mentioned song is Romania's national anthem. Probably doesn't help.

Do you all think this example from YMMV.Zoey 101 is shoehorning?

Yeah, Quinn isn't meant to be seen as ugly. It's her interests that make her weird.

I found this example on Values Dissonance from Puella Magi Madoka Magica

• Kyosuke's depression over his inability to use his left hand is not just because he can no longer play the violin, but also because Japan is less supportive of the disabled than the West is, thereby causing him to see himself as a burden on society. Western fans, however, are more inclined to believe that he should quit his whining and find something he can do for a living within his limitations, and don't sympathize with him lashing out at Sayaka at the start of Episode 4.

I don't see the dissonance here, kyosuke lost the ability to do the thing he loved. I would expect something in that situation would be depressed and lash out. Ive never heard anyone call this whining, but I suppose I haven't seen alot of discussion about.

The example is also bashing.

We have a cleanup thread for VD, btw.

For the record I'd say it's not an example.

(x4) I don't think I've heard people call it "whining" either and I agree with that it's also bashing. (Granted, I don't recall reading much discussion of it either.) Lastly, I'm leaning on it not being an example because that's what he loves doing as you said. For the record, I'm only saying "leaning" because I'm not familiar with ableism^note if that's the right way to describe it in Japan.

Regarding the ableist/disability stuff, I don't recall the show depicting the disability itself being a source angst. Rather it was squarely focused on the fact that his disability robbed him of his violin playing. So even if japan handles disabilities worse then other countries it seems like reading into things to me.

If theres no objections I'll remove it in a bit

Now that I think of it, I recall him seeming more so angsty about how he couldn't be a violinist again. And not the fact he'd disabled, by itself that is. I also feel you have enough consensus to remove the example now.

EDIT: I also don't recall there being any ableism in-show, though granted I haven't watched it in several years.

Edited by RandomTroper123 on Oct 24th 2022 at 2:53:36 AM

Random Troper 123 I took your suggestion about the Base-Breaking Character trope and applied it to Amber. Does this trope work for her?^note This might be included in the Invincible (2021) page:

• Base-Breaking Character: Amber becomes this after Episode 7 when it's revealed that she knew Mark was Invincible for weeks and still got angry with him for not trusting her with his secret.This irritated a lot of fans, who felt as though Amber was being self-centered and inconsiderate of what Mark was going through as a superhero. Some fans, on the other hand, agree with Amber that Mark was a terrible boyfriend for not telling her the truth about his superhero identity and putting her in danger.

Does she fit all the criteria on the Base-Breaking Character page? In particular I think I remember someone questioning whether there's been six months of fandom disagreement since that revelation.

You forgot to put a space between the first period and "This". It otherwise looks good in my opinion. However, please note there's currently a six-month waiting period for BBC.

I also noticed that Kyosuke appear in Unintentionally Unsympathetic:

• Kyosuke, noted under The Scrappy, even people that don't hate usually don't think he comes off as sympathetic since a decent chunk of his screen time consists of him being a Jerkass toward Sayaka out of frustration over his injury. Realistic, yes, but people usually don't sympathize with somebody they don't see being remotely likable. Another common criticism is he could have at least told Sayaka he was leaving the hospital.

The Scrappy mentioned that the fandom dislikes him for being an "obstacle" to Kyoko/Sayaka [ship]. With all the discussion about his disability and how is portray, it makes think if this example is correct.

Edited by SoyValdo7 on Oct 24th 2022 at 5:04:13 AM

From [1]: He Really Can Act: An uncredited Mel Blanc gives an unrecognizable performance as Kaa, in contrast to some of his other voices which tend to overlap, and is easily one of the best voices for Kaa ever, after Sam Elliott and Cate Blanchett.

Maybe we should be more specific on best voices ever because checking BTVA, Sterling Holloway's the most popular followed by Jim Cummings then Sam Elliott followed by Cate Blanchett. Mel Blanc is dead last as he's tied for 0 votes alongside Joe Alaskey and Terry Klassen!

How submissive does a character have to be to qualify as Aggressive Submissive? Does being on the bottom in sex and getting turned on by authority/maturity in relationships count? Or does it have to be more explicitly sexual?

Edited by mightymewtron on Oct 24th 2022 at 7:35:20 AM

Does Hotter and Sexier apply to individual characters or is it exclusive to whole works and Fanservice Pack is used instead?

Hotter and Sexier just applies to works while Fanservice Pack applies just to characters.

I have a problem with this example from the YMMV in She-Hulk: Attorney at Law

• Common Knowledge: Many who only followed the online hate for the show and didn’t actually watch it think that all of the ridiculous plot elements happening in this scene during the finale is a sign that the Real Life writers didn’t know what they were doing, when in fact they were setting up the fact that the show was getting out of hand, causing Jen to promptly go to the In-Universe writers’ room and demand they stop the nonsensical ending for a better one. Taking a look at the video’s comment section will prove just how widespread this misconception is, with many assuming that Jen’s line “this is a mess!” is a sign of the show lacking self-awareness.

Besides the fact that the entry spends a lot of text fighting with the purported hatedom, the Common Knowledge definition says this.

"There are some things that everyone knows. Well, sorta. As it turns out, people as a whole know less than they think they do. Casual viewers or readers of a work will often come away with their fair share of mistakes that, over time and through word of mouth, evolve into widespread misconceptions. Such fallacies are often used by actual fans as a yardstick of the difference between themselves and the masses, although fans themselves are not immune to holding these misconceptions (particularly by confusing Fanon and Canon)."

So I can't really see this as an example given that it hasn't passed enough time for the misconception to actually entrench itself on the casual viewers. Still, would like some feedback before axing the entry and know if I'm correct or not.

Edited by Edgar81539 on Oct 24th 2022 at 7:31:37 AM

Well, we do have this Common Knowledge cleanup thread: Common Knowledge cleanup, so you can post it here too, though it's not very active right now (The last post there was me deciding to delete the "Dub-Induced Plot Hole" from Pallet Party Panic! about Ash supposedly never making his promise to come back for Pidgeot in the dub but the Common Knowledge page for Pokémon says he did make the promise in the Japanese version and Japanese fans complain he never came back for his Normal/Flying-type)

Does this qualify as a "Shaggy Dog" Story or Cruel Twist Ending?

In Ara Fell the heroine gathers several powerful Elven artifacts and part of the final dungeon is using them to unseal the petrified elves who became stone to try and thwart the vampires. Lita succeeds in reviving the elves and they help her open the final locked door to the mythical sunstone which enables the islands to remain in the air. However, after this, when Lita and the others go into the Sunstone's chamber, the elves are blown up by the big bad using some stolen explosives, leaving all but two elves surviving, the two who didn't agree with the others and didn't turn to stone thousands of years ago.

Lita does go on to defeat the villain, but the elves are still dead.

The Common Knowledge cleanup suffered from the same problems as the trope itself, no one knows what exactly constitutes knowledge that is "common".

But the example doesn't pass the smell test, it seems like some shoehorned defensiveness on the part of a fan. I say cut away.

(x4) Cut.

I honestly feel neither of them count because it doesn't sound like a Twist Ending and she did defeat the baddie. Personally, I feel it's closer to All for Nothing and still don't feel it counts or at least as a played straight example.

Would Sacrificial Lamb or P Layer Punch work as only one of the elves has a known name and personality, mainly grateful to the hero but hatred to the others who "abandoned" the rest of the elves.

Edited by isoycrazy on Oct 25th 2022 at 5:43:48 AM

I'm unsure about Sacrificial Lamb though Player Punch sounds like it fits.