Literature A Song Of Ice And Fire Discussion

Collapse/Expand Topics
 

slvstrChung
Topic
02:36:53 PM Jun 17th 2015
So, there was a day when I added a link to the Game of Thrones recap pages, since they basically summarized the books. That day is over, and I think we're best served by having Recaps or Synopses for the books.

The question I'm posing here is how to ORGANIZE them. I feel like going chapter-by-chapter is too detailed (and would result in huge pages). However, organizing by region, as The Other Wiki does, is somewhat unwieldy (CF A Storm of Swords, where I had to re-organize the synopsis with the North first because if we started in the southron six kingdoms, Jaime would enter the plot literally out of nowhere). I guess, maybe, by character? Perhaps by plotline? The Ice, the Fire and the Song (IE the War of Five Kings)? But that too is going to get complicated (CF Storm of Swords where Stannis leaves the Song and joins the Ice). And, in my mind, one of the most important things we can include in these synopses is everything that was Adapted Out on HBO (LSH, the Sun's Son, Young Griff, backstory on Robert's Rebellion, all of the Iron Islands), because some of those things have become so central to speculation on what the last two books are going to be (particularly the Secret Targaryen theories).

So, esteemed tropers: what is the best way to tackle this?
JulianLapostat
08:21:59 PM Jun 17th 2015
Recap of the books is really long, unwieldy cumbersome...or as Stannis would say, all the more reason to do it.

The point is that the books are really intricately plotted. Stuff that happens in one POV (Jaime and Brienne meeting Roose at Harrenhal) pays off in another (Catelyn at Red Wedding in ASOS).

I suggest we follow the action, by plotline. We mention the POV characters in Bold* We avoid going too much into the internal stuff unless its absolutely germane to the on-screen action (like say Tower of Joy). Then we can keep it short and managable.
qazwsx
Topic
06:07:43 PM Oct 9th 2014
Should Archmaester Gyldayn's Histories (The Princess and the Queen, The Rouge Prince) get their own page, like the Tale of Dunk and Egg?
SeptimusHeap
01:02:00 AM Oct 10th 2014
If there is enough material to make a page from them, sure.
Shnakepup
Topic
09:15:11 AM Aug 7th 2014
edited by 65.170.41.5
Does it not bother anyone else that there isn't any kind of "general" description of the series at the top of the page? Approach it from the viewpoint of someone who isn't familiar at all with the series, aside from the name. They look it up to see what it is.

The first paragraph just says its a "Doorstopper epic fantasy series" but gives no details and spends the rest of the time just listing various books and publications. Then there's several lists, exhaustively listing all the various main novels, companion novels, prequels...ugh. It's not until you scroll down past all that you finally find some description of what the series is actually about. Like, seriously, someone shouldn't have to scroll down half the dang page just to find out what the page even is.

I'd suggest putting at least a sentence or two in the first paragraph explaining, in broad strokes, what the heck ASOIAF is. If it were up to me, I'd also take out all the random trivia about prequels and adaptions out...but that's just me. At the very least I'd suggest moving it to lower in the introduction. There's no reason to front-load the page with all this miscellanea! Start with simple descriptions at first, with an unfamiliar reader in mind, and then get progressively further into details as the intro goes along.

Just my two cents.
SeptimusHeap
09:18:46 AM Aug 7th 2014
Yep, that is seriously bad. I don't have time or the knowledge to put up a description, though, so you'll probably have to ask here in the forums for a rewrite.
Shnakepup
09:20:20 AM Aug 7th 2014
I mean, I could throw something up. Normally I would just go ahead and do it but this page is a lot more active than the ones I usually contribute to, so I didn't want to step on any toes...
SeptimusHeap
09:23:16 AM Aug 7th 2014
Another option would be to drop the list of works down and the description of the works up. Most other pages start with a description, then with the worklist.
Shnakepup
09:26:48 AM Aug 7th 2014
Isn't there a way to make lists collapsible, as well? Via folders I think? I don't know what other people would think of that, but I just hate how much vertical space those lists waste.
Shnakepup
06:30:43 AM Nov 21st 2014
Had some free time and decide to go ahead and rearrange/reword the intro significantly (after only a couple months from when I first considered it :P). Hopefully I didn't step on any toes or piss anyone off. But I do think it's better now. There's probably more I could do but maybe I'll get to that in another few months :)
Euodiachloris
Topic
03:04:49 AM Apr 8th 2014
Euron Greyjoy: Is it time to consider him going to join the Complete Monster brigade, yet? Because, frankly: when you terrify the Ironborn the way he manages to do, you ain't normal.
SeptimusHeap
07:33:24 AM Apr 8th 2014
There is a thread in the Long Term Projects forum to discuss additions to Complete Monster pages. All examples need to be cleared with it.
Euodiachloris
06:29:53 PM Apr 8th 2014
Thanks, mate.
Euodiachloris
Topic
06:26:14 AM Sep 20th 2013
Question: Walder Frey (and the rest of the Freys). Are they Too Dumb to Live or What an Idiot for their plans for getting with the Lannisters and Boltons to plan the Red Wedding and how they've gone about "covering" their tracks?

Standard power grab from a Pet Rat/ Starscream going south with understandable setbacks? Or dumbass move from the get-go? Need to work out which. :)
CarrieVS
Topic
01:26:58 PM May 30th 2013
I know this isn't really what the discussion page is for, but does anyone know where I can get hold of the Dunk and Egg stories? Are they published as part of anthologies? I managed to locate the first one in Dreamsongs, but I cannot find the second and third stories anywhere.
X3
Topic
09:54:57 AM Feb 13th 2013
Why are there asterisks everywhere?
Telcontar
10:53:21 AM Feb 13th 2013
I don't know why there would be (nothing is out of the ordinary on the history page), and none are showing up on my end. Can you point to a specific one that you see?
X3
05:04:24 PM Feb 14th 2013
Sorry, I may have the wrong discussion page, but there seems to be an asterisk overload on the character pages. Some of them are clickable and do have useful information, but they seem to have been added for every character, and most of them are empty.
FastEddie
05:08:10 PM Feb 14th 2013
Yeah, there is a definite surplus. Just zap 'em as you come across them.
StormKensho
Topic
01:06:17 AM May 15th 2012
Whatever happened to the troper who wrote those immaculate episode descriptions?
slvstrChung
02:20:09 PM Jun 17th 2015
I wrote a lot of the Recaps for the first two seasons, but that doesn't necessarily make me the person you're thinking of.
Achaemenid
Topic
02:14:09 PM Apr 17th 2012
Should we perhaps change the page quote to Rhaegar's "the song of ice and fire" one. That way we title drop the whole series rather than just book 1.

Thoughts?
LMage
02:35:37 PM Apr 17th 2012
Could we have both? I think Cersei's quote exemplifies the series in many ways.
johnnye
05:04:39 AM May 30th 2012
The point of a page quote is not to provide a title drop for the sake of it. The "game of thrones" quote actually exemplifies the series, it just happens to namedrop one of the books as well. The "song of ice and fire" quote is a title drop for its own sake — it doesn't tell you anything meaningful about the series.

If you wanted to go for duality, an ice-themed quote about the Others and a fire-themed quote about the war would be the way to go. For example;

"The common people pray for rain, healthy children and a summer that never ends. It is no matter to them if the high lords play their game of thrones, so long as they are left in peace."
Ser Jorah Mormont

"Winter is Coming"
Stark motto
MrScourge
08:14:07 PM May 31st 2012
edited by MrScourge
Actually, why not use "Valar Morghulis" and "Valar Dohaeris" as quotes? They both sum up the series pretty well. "All Men Must Die" covers the backstabbing "you win or you lose" aspect of the books and "All Men Must Serve" covers the Myth Arc part. (All men must serve to fight the Others or something.)
BornIn1142
Topic
01:13:22 PM Jan 21st 2012
Army of Thieves and Whores is YMMV? How? Why? Since when?
johnnye
05:30:39 AM Apr 12th 2012
It's not listed as such on the trope page.
ArcaneAzmadi
Topic
03:28:57 AM Jan 12th 2012
When Tyrion talks with Varys in A Storm Of Swords, Varys mentions his mutilated nose and Tyrion sarcastically jokes "Perhaps I should have a new one made of gold." Later, Jaime loses his right hand and has it replaced with a gold one. Should this go under Foreshadowing, "Funny Aneurysm" Moment, Brick Joke or something else?
BornIn1142
08:39:03 AM Jan 12th 2012
None of the above? I don't think there's any significance to this. Prosthetic limbs are a thing and Lannisters have an association with gold.
Iskro
09:14:42 PM Jan 27th 2012
Their house symbol is a lion on a field of red. Basically, they symbolize wealth and blood. Pretty good symbolism, considering most in the family are ridiculously rich and go around causing death and bloodshed. It shows off how they are like lions, perhaps more so then like humans, as well as their misuse of wealth.
EnragedFilia
08:25:07 PM May 31st 2012
Ostentatious conspicuous consumption isn't necessarily a "misuse" of wealth, but that's a matter of some fairly heavy duty economic theory.

Anyway, if you're in a medieval setting and you need a prosthetic, your best options are probably either the Berserk approach or something ostentatious. That's why I'd say it's both coincidence and a reference to Tywin's fondness for showing off his old money.
Jordan
Topic
04:35:11 PM Sep 2nd 2011
I wanted to contest the removal of these examples:

I think it's appropriate to list Bloodraven as possibly a Heroic Albino. I haven't read the prequels, so I'm not sure how well he comes off there, but doesn't he seem potentially good at least in his appearance in ADWD? I get the impression he's based on Elric Of Melinbone, another character hard to classify as Evil Albino or Heroic Albino.

Also, I think the Kingswood Brotherhood should be listed under Just Like Robin Hood- They basically sound like the Merry Men of earlier stories (before the "rob from the rich and the give to the poor" came in- they just did the first part).
ccoa
05:18:04 PM Sep 23rd 2011
Hmmm. Robbing from the rich and giving to the poor is a central part of the Just Like Robin Hood trope, though. In fact, the trope admits that early Robin Hood is a poor example of the trope.
EnragedFilia
04:19:14 PM Sep 30th 2011
From what I've seen, Bloodraven comes off as more conflicted than heroic in the prequels.
Klaudandus
Topic
10:55:29 AM Sep 1st 2011
edited by Klaudandus
Fibrodisplasia Ossificans Progressiva (FOP) is a genetic disease and the calcification of the fibrous tissue is internal, meaning that while the deformities caused by the disease are visible, the skin remains unaffected.

Leprosy and Smallpox cause serious skin lesions that can leave the skin looking as if petrified, are lethal if untreated, and contagious, meaning it fits Greyscale much better.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smallpox http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leprosy
ARaihan
Topic
08:30:32 AM Aug 6th 2011
Shifting Too Dumb To Live to the YMMV page, since there are opinions there I disagree with and I'm sure others might.
BlueNocturne
Topic
08:26:16 PM Aug 2nd 2011
Out of curiosity, do you think it might be time to split the individual books into their own pages, like with the Harry Potter books? I ask this as someone who's relatively new to the series and am trying not get spoiled for the later books (am in the middle of A Co K now). I don't think I'm the only new fan brought in by the TV show who is also an avid troper. Besides, I think each book could support plenty of its own tropes.
BornIn1142
10:39:11 PM Aug 2nd 2011
That might be a good idea. The page is getting rather long, and this is better than to folderize it.
CaptainCrawdad
11:53:46 PM Aug 15th 2011
Splitting this page into separate book pages would make it too fractured. Lots of tropes apply to many books, and to the setting itself. That's a lot of repetition and redundancy. Also, tropes develop as the books go on, which would lead to a constant influx of spoilers. It's a bad idea to read a trope page if you don't want to be spoiled. Discussing what happens is the whole point.
FallsApart
05:25:11 PM Sep 12th 2011
I think, maybe, if there's time/energy for a massive overhaul, we have a general page, then a page for each of the books. They're pretty expanisve, and there'd definitely be enough to fill each.
Funkasaurus
04:17:53 PM Sep 23rd 2011
We could do like with Avatar: The Last Airbender or Order Of The Stick and sort the tropes alphabetically?
flamenemy
Topic
09:51:43 AM Jul 20th 2011
edited by flamenemy
Added a Did Not Do The Research entry regarding the eating of snow/ice as means to drink water. This is a very bad idea if you want to preserve your body heat; the solution for this is putting snow/ice in a sack and warming it beneath your clothes.

The characters - Bran & Co. - certainly had the means to do this since they knew where they were going and a simple sack for carrying water is one of the first things you need in these circumstances. One would imagine people from the north would know this.

IMO it was an oversight on G. Martin's part, yet still an example of the trope. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
eX
07:36:42 PM Jul 24th 2011
edited by eX
It might not be the best idea in a cold environment, but Martin never claims it is, so is not the the trope. You might file this under Artistic License, but for Did Not Do The Research, there would have to be something there that directly contradicts a real life fact.
flamenemy
02:38:46 AM Aug 3rd 2011
Thanks, I think I got it.
GabiC
Topic
04:12:16 AM Jul 12th 2011
How about locking the page from any new edits for a week or so? The new book just came out and doing so would hold off on unmarked spoilers flooding in.
slvstrChung
Topic
01:43:12 PM Jun 21st 2011
Out of curiosity: does anyone know—has it even been established?—how Littlefinger got his nickname? I mean, it's not like he has a Right Red... little finger or something.
OntologicalSynaesthesia
05:40:56 AM Jun 23rd 2011
He's the lord of the smallest of the peninsulas known as "The Fingers" - hence, Littlefinger.
slvstrChung
12:07:15 AM Jun 28th 2011
Ah, sense is made. Thxmuch.
Owners
Topic
05:11:22 PM Jan 31st 2011
Regarding the recent mass movement of things to YMMV - I would say things like Ensemble Darkhorse is not a matter of opinion - those characters are genuinely popular. There is no subjectivity there. Same for things like fan nicknames and so on.
ccoa
05:29:04 PM Jan 31st 2011
There's a thread to debate that on the forums where the people in charge will actually see it.
Owners
09:34:44 PM Jan 31st 2011
Oh right...I thought that this was a one-off movement...
CaptainCrawdad
Topic
10:20:44 PM Dec 13th 2010
Removed:

  • Alternative Character Interpretation: A large number of characters, specifically Catelyn, Stannis and Daenerys. Also applies in-world for obvious reasons: Daenerys and Viserys see Stark as a villainous usurper, while he sees himself as honorable and loyal. Stark sees Jaime as a villainous Kinslayer, while Jaime sees himself as someone who simply did what had to be done. Several characters are convinced Tyrion is a Complete Monster, while he is merely trying to stay alive and safe (from his own relatives, no less!). Cersei sees Tywin as a great father, but to Tyrion... yeah, you get the idea.
    • Catelyn had became quite a Base Breaker considering how she treated Jon, and is in many ways still treated badly in fanfiction. Sometimes as bad as Cersei! Both Catelyn and Cersei started off as two sides of the same coin-vindictive women who would protect their children at all costs. However, Catelyn became increasingly more sympathetic (...well until she Came Back Wrong after the Red Wedding), Cersei became increasingly more vile until she had became a Complete Monster.

Catelyn doesn't really apply, since there's no alternate interpretation. She's written with flaws, and some readers just get more angry about those flaws. The in-world stuff doesn't apply either, since the trope is about fan perceptions, not characters having different opinions on one another.
ccoa
Topic
08:18:21 AM Dec 7th 2010
edited by ccoa
Shouldn't A Game of Thrones redirect to Game of Thrones? People are going to be using it to refer to the series as soon as it starts.
CaptainCrawdad
Topic
01:31:08 PM Aug 18th 2010
I removed these:

  • Idiot Ball: Various character do dumb things, often for character reasons:
Catelyn seems pretty fond of it : very weak evidence is enough to convince her that Tyrion is guilty of trying to kill her son; she consequently abducts him, giving the Lannister a pretext for starting the war; later, after her side has captured Jaime, she takes it upon herself to secretly release this extremely important hostage and send him home, guarded only by Brienne and his own word, in the hope that this will somehow bring her daughters back to her.
  • In that case we should really mention her husband too: goes to the queen thinking that she will accept his gift of mercy when she has all the power of the court behind her, knowing what she is capable of as a mother as well as a Lannister. Of course there is also her son: crowns himself king in the north against the powers of the most seasoned general and ruthless politician in Westeros, Tywin Lannister, sends Theon Greyjoy to Pyke to treat with his father and thus gives up the power of hostage over the Iron Islands, marries Jeyne Westerling and thus throws away his alliance with the notoriously unforgiving Walder Frey, kills Rickard Karstark instead of imprisoning him and thus alienates the support of his family at a crucial time in the war.

According to the trope page, the trope is intended for out-of-character actions or contrived misunderstandings. All of these actions are, while misguided and even dumb, are in character.
kraas
Topic
10:51:04 AM Jun 24th 2010
Does my Abusive Precursors example fit?

  • Precursors: Valyria.
    • Apparently Abusive Precursors as well (though not as abusive as most examples of this trope). The "Free Cities" are called "Free" because they're no longer under the heel of Old Valyria. The city of Braavos was founded as a secret haven for refugees from Valyrian domination.

I'm saying they aren't as bad as other examples because they didn't leave extremely dangerous world-breaking artifacts lying around, but I just wanted to ask about this before putting it on the page.
CaptainCrawdad
10:42:39 AM Jun 25th 2010
I don't think so. They never messed around with the civilizations that came after them. They were just an empire that collapsed. And the Free Cities aren't named because they necessarily feel they've cast off the shackles of evil overlords. They're simply independent and self-ruled cities.
kraas
04:54:41 PM Jun 27th 2010
Noted, thanks for the input.
EnragedFilia
06:04:34 PM Aug 20th 2011
They might turn out to be more abusive if some dangerous magic turns up later though. If the Doom was caused by something, whatever it was might still be lying around, for instance.
CaptainCrawdad
Topic
11:31:03 PM Apr 22nd 2010
edited by CaptainCrawdad
Took these out for further discussion:

Some of these really don't fit. How is Timmet an evil genius? And Daven is a pretty decent guy. Not The Brute at all. Plus, he's only in one scene. If anything, Jaime is The Brute, being the dumb fighter who loves slaughter, and the Dragon is Kevan, Tywin's right hand man.
readergurl6
12:19:00 PM Aug 23rd 2011
For the Five Bad Band, Id replace Daven with the Gregor Clegane. Also, I think Tywin only wishes that Jaime would act as his Dragon but Jaime is to unpredictable. Cersei wants to be the Dragon but she lacks the Brains/Brawns/Judgement so Tywin ignores her. Tyrion is the most qualified Lannister to be the Dragon, but because of his Dwarfism his father discounts him. That leaves Kevan the dragon by default.
Funkasaurus
04:13:03 PM Sep 23rd 2011
The Five Bad Band for the Lannister regime eventually becomes Cersei (Big Bad), Kevan (The Dragon, and Only Sane Man), Franken-Gregor (The Brute), Qyburn (Evil Genius) and Pycelle (The Dark Chick).

The recruits of the Night's Watch fit perfectly though. Jon (The Hero), Ghost (The Lancer and Team Pet), Pyp (The Smart Guy), Grenn (The Big Guy), and Sam (The Chick).

During the rebellion, the major players from houses Baratheon, Lannister and Stark made a Power Trio against the Targaryens as well. Boisterous Bruiser Robert was the emotional revenge-driven id, hidebound Ned the superego and self-interested Jaime the ego.
EnragedFilia
04:29:22 PM Sep 30th 2011
I still think it's a stretch. In the first two instances there are many more people on those 'teams' you're ignoring because they don't happen to fit in the band roles. Where does Littlefinger fit? Or is he no longer part of the team after he leaves for the Vale? How about Mace Tyrell, who's still at least nominally on the Lannisters' side? At the wall, I'd say Sam would be at least as good as The Smart Guy, and Small Paul a better The Big Guy. On top of that, both of these 'bands' shift repeatedly throughout the course of the series. As I'm sure you know, Kevan and Robert Strong are only present simultaneously for a brief time, and Sam hasn't been anywhere near the wall for some time.
EnragedFilia
04:33:04 PM Sep 30th 2011
As for the Power Trio example, Jaime switches sides very late in the rebellion and does so for different reasons than the others. Hoster Tullly and Jon Arryn both have a more central role in the rebellion, and since neither of them get to have flashbacks to it, it's tricky to characterize their motivations.

In summary, I just don't think these 'hero team' and 'villain team' tropes are useful to describe characters in this series for a number of reasons.
DivineVirus
Topic
07:19:42 AM Apr 11th 2010
GRRM recently wrote the following for the Suvudu Cage Match between Rand and Jamie.

""No one is ta'veren in Westeros," said Tyrion. "Our gods are fickler than yours. They have no favorites." Though there a few they like to piss on, now that I reflect on it.""

He later said ""We have our own Creator here... a crueler one than yours, I fear. In his domain the only pattern is the one men make themselves, There are no ta'veren. No man is ever safe.""

I feel like we should somehow include these quotes (or parts of these quotes) on the page, but I don't know how. Thanks! DV
Taelor
Topic
02:18:09 PM Mar 15th 2010
edited by Taelor
Reverting the Half-Human Hybrid and Offstage Villainy examples. The former because no reason was given for its deletion, and the latter because the stated reason does not appear to be valid. Yes, the Bolton's aren't particularly worse than some of the other houses, but this example was not about House Bolton in general, it was about Ramsey Bolton in particular. And it's a valid example because, so far, most of his villainy has been off stage. Hence his inclusion in the example. I did rewrite it slightly, though.
Collapse/Expand Topics