Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

Nobody ever disagreed.

Yes, it's been two weeks since John Wick 2. As person who reserved discussion? Once again, nobody counts. Santino doesn't have any real redeeming factors, but his villainy is exceedingly tame for a villain of his caliber... ultimately, he's more of a smug, hateable coward than anything approaching a CM. No one else is heinous enough and all the other antagonists either have redeeming traits or they're one-off, nameless assassins.

• Jerome Valeska, in his first appearance, ends up in Arkham Asylum for murdering his mother, in his words, for being a "nagging drunken whore". When interrogated, he laughs it off as if it were a joke. When he and several other inmates are recruited into the Maniax gang by Theo Galavan, Jerome functions as the de facto leader, announcing their presence by throwing several hostages off a roof. Later, he attempts to set a bus full of high school cheerleaders on fire; shoots up the GCPD station, personally killing Commissioner Essen; and kills one of his own men for cracking a joke he was about to make. Jerome later kills his father, then poses as a magician to hold a children's hospital charity hostage, killing the deputy mayor. He plans to kill thirteen-year-old Bruce Wayne, threatening his butler Alfred to draw him out. When he gets his hands on Bruce, he begins to slowly slit his throat in the following standoff. Following his death, Jerome had a cult which embraced his ideology. Shortly after his resurrection, Jerome has Dwight, the leader of said cult, strapped to a bomb as Jerome didn't like Dwight using Jerome's face when he thought the resurrection had failed, and announces his return to the city, encouraging his followers to spread death and chaos, then detonating the bomb. In the chaos, Jerome intends to finish killing Bruce, before deciding to do something special to kill him. Jerome takes Bruce to a sadistic theme park where innocent people are tortured and killed in twisted carnival games, forcing Bruce to watch and stapling his arm, before preparing the main event; to blast Bruce with a cannon in front of his followers. A maniacal psychopath who believes in chaos for the sake of chaos, Jerome, following his resurrection, is on the path to become Gotham's most infamous criminal.
• Ultraman Ginga & Ginga S: Dark Lugiel is Ginga's Evil Counterpart and dark side. They split because Ginga wanted life to change and evolve naturally, while Lugiel wanted life to remain in stasis, which meant killing and petrifying everyone in existence. To do so, Lugiel started a tremendous war between the heroes and villains of the Ultra Series, with himself leading the charge on the villainous side—only to turn on them and use his Dark Spark to turn everyone on both sides into Spark Dolls. Ultraman Taro was still able to speak, but everyone else was trapped as an immobile tiny statue until Lugiel decided to use their powers for something. Thanks to Ginga, Lugiel lost his own body, so he takes over a woman in Japan and uses his trapped minions to torment the students all over an elementary school. Lugiel had no restraints about throwing them aside when necessary—he kills Alien Icarus, reverting his body to a Spark Doll after Icarus fails and surrenders to the heroes. After Lugiel finally gains enough power to strike directly, he mind rapes dozens of people, inflicting them with such despair that they pass out, while Lugiel feeds on this to restore his own powers. When Ginga attempts to stop him, Lugiel goes for a sucker punch and then tortures a half-powered Ginga until he too loses consciousness. Lugiel is beaten, but comes back in the sequel as Dark Lugiel, returning after his body was restored by Alien Chibull Exceller, and used as a weapon against Ginga and Victory. Lugiel then takes his body back, kills Exceller via a shot to the back, and takes over his new enhanced Vict Lugiel form and preparing to use his powers to turn all of humanity into Spark Dolls. He gleefully gloats that he'd create the ultimate paradise...but it'd only be perfect for himself.

edited 24th Feb '17 3:59:40 PM by ACW

Yeah, pity about Santino after waiting two weeks, but I don't disagree, he barely broaches baseline heinousness let alone that of the bizarre Crapsack World that is the domain of John Wick.

On the other hand, at least there's only a week until what should be a very interesting discussion. (The one downside of getting new releases out of the way as soon as I can is maximizing the wait time for this thread's waiting period to pass.)

I've got three next week: A Cure For Wellness, Sniper Elite IV and For Honor.

I strongly suspect some strong proposals my way on those weeks.

So how comedic does a work need to be for it to be decided it's too humorous to have a CM in it even if the candidate has several moments played dark and seriously? (As an example, what makes Judge Doom or Hades serious enough but not Lennart Bedranger or Caldwell B. Cladwell?)

Majority of people who ed him was for the work being too comedic from what I saw though.

edited 24th Feb '17 9:17:45 AM by Awesomekid42

I'll be getting to Dragons: Race to the Edge in a week's time should I be able to catch up. With no spoilers... we might yet have someone to replace our friend Dagur.

Actually, for Bedrager, I was all set to vote him a CM until he seemed to have regrets? for what he did. To answer the question, if the character's played seriously (think Knight of Cerebus and/or Vile Villain, Saccharine Show), they likely can count. Doom, for one, is played DEAD seriously.

edited 24th Feb '17 9:44:41 AM by ACW

Doom's actions are never played lightly. While the movie is a Comedy, Doom is a Knight of Cerebus, meaning he has a serious tone that contrasts the movie's light tone. He's treated as being a horrible character planning the mass genocide of his own kind at that and that's never treated as anything but a dark, twisted crime. If it was treated as being quirky and silly, it wouldn't have been the same.

Rowan North from Ghostbusters: Answer the Call didn't count because while his intended crimes, while horrible, were not played up to the level that they could be treated with the seriousness necessary. Wild Wild West, while having a very light tone otherwise, treated Arliss Loveless as a sadistic madman who had no qualms about killing hundreds of people just to test his weapon as being an unforgivable and unfunny act of violence.

For a Comedy to have a CM, the villain's actions need to be treated the same as they would in a more serious film for them to be able to count. The LCU is way too comedic a universe for it to ever do that with its villains and not poke fun at it too.

And as for Hades, I've not played the game, but I remember there was a VIGOROUS debate over that one.

edited 24th Feb '17 9:58:02 AM by ACW

Comic!Michael.

The problem (at least I had) with Bedrager is that the underlying theme of his actions is a case of Crosses the Line Twice. He wants to start World War 3. That's bad! He wants to start World War 3 by using the almighty power of the internet to "derp, derp, derp" troll. That's....hilarious!

@DDD: Actually, in H20, Loomis is explicitly stated to have survived his "death" in Halloween II. From the official Wikipedia entry:

"Two investigators discuss what they know about Loomis' life in this alternate version of the series. Having survived the explosion in 1978, Loomis was under Marion's care at this house before dying, presumably from natural causes. However, even after nearly 20 years, Loomis refused to believe that Michael was dead, and devoted the rest of his life to studying all information about his former patient. The two investigators then enter his private study, completely untouched by Michael's burglary, and find that the walls are covered with photographs, sketches, and newspaper articles about Michael; from the murder of his sister Judith, to the stealing of her tombstone, to the murders in 1978..."

And thus, those 20 years of undocumented story in the films is what these comics detail, so I'd say they are indeed meant to be canon.

Overall, I'm kinda leaning toward ACW's idea to expand the Film entry with a couple of his crimes from the comics, specifying that they're from the comics, then make a more detailed post exclusively for his comics' version to go at the Comic Books page. If anyone objects, I'll be happy to discuss, but for the time being, I think that's our best course of action.

@Beast: Funny you should bring that up, as I myself was planning on mentioning it. I'd definitely say it's meant to be taken in-canon, and furthermore, I'd quite like to reserve discussion for it unless someone else has their eye set on it, as I'm a HUGE Halloween fan, if it wasn't obvious. XD

Can you please add to the end of my draft for Rudd "all in the name of Greed"?

edited 24th Feb '17 11:25:59 AM by k410ren

Btw guys. I'm seeing Get Out today. I'll do the EP after two weeks if we have any keepers

I thought AustinDR already has the slot for that film?

If so, my mistake.

OK, OK, this time I’ve got a serious proposal.

What is the work?

[[videogame: Vanquish]] is a third person shooter taking place in the future on an orbital colony with a solar energy laser that provides Earth with energy. In terms of tone, it’s sort of like a 90s Sci Fi B movie that ‘’might’’ be tongue in cheek. From Wikipedia: In the near future, Earth's human population grew rapidly that the nations fight for the scarce remaining resources and the United States of America attempted to alleviate its energy problems by launching an O'Neill Cylinder space station called Providence that harbors a solar energy-driven generator to provide them with an alternative energy source. However, the government of the Russian Federation has been overthrown in a coup d'état by a section of the Russian military calling themselves the Order of the Russian Star. Also, it’s made by Platinum Games so it’s Got Y every year.

Who is the candidate?

Victor Zaitsev is the principle of the Order of the Russian Star and the Big Bad of the game.

What has he done?

Oh, geez. Well. Here we go.

So it’s a nice day in San Francisco. People are walking, kids are playing. It’s all good.

So naturally Zaitsev decides it’s a good time to go screaming over the Moral Event Horizon by using Providence to fire a goddamn microwave laser to destroy San Fran and its population.

And this is not a quick death. It is burning, blistering pain. Then bursting in a shower of blood. I mentioned there were kids, right? Really shocking Nightmare Fuel for a mostly silly game.

He then threatens to do this to New York unless the USA surrenders.

As of 2013 there 837,442 living in San Francisco.

He killed nearly all them in a horrible, horrible way.

He has also kidnapped Professor Candide who designed the energy system that powers Providence and the suit Sam Gideon, the Player Character, uses. Sam Gideon’s a former football player who suffered an injury and signed up to DARPA to test the suit. Why does Japan make the most America fuck yeah games? Anyway, Candide is apparently too important for Zaitsev to kill, so he keeps him alive. That’s the only reason he’s not dead.

So, events continue, you fight Zaitsev and his robot army (of note, no Russian soldiers are ever fought, just robots). There’s a boss fight against Zaitsev in a cool suit, but he gets away cause he’s too stronk.

Next we see him speaking via video chat with the President Winters. Turns out the US and Russia were working together and she wants to know why they betrayed them. He claims “cooperation is mutual exploitation. We just exploited you first.”

And then we meet him again for the Final Boss fight. With two of him. Yeah, he’s in one suit and the other’s a slave unit, but he’s not telling which is which. Whatever happened to fighting fair? He then provides a revelation: That President Winters backed their takeover of Russia. He claims that Winters wanted to use the Order as a pretext for war to stimulate the USA’s flagging economy. I dunno where he got this info, whether from spies or an educated guess, but he’s speaking the truth. And yes, this did just become Metal Gear. He claims he’s justified attacking US cities because “The betrayed have a right to retribution.” More on this when I get to the Mitigating Factors.

You manage to defeat him and- Masaka! He was lying! They were both slave units and he was remotely controlling them! Mocking Sam, Zaitsev activates his suit’s nukes to destroy the Providence and keep it out of American hands.

Sam excapes, but Zaitsev also gets away, Reporting to… someone that he has accomplished his mission. The voice on the other end responds that their ascent to power is complete.

Which I can’t argue with. San Francisco is fucking dead, a victim of the worst terrorist attack ever. Winter’s corruption was exposed by the campaign on the Providence and she ends up killing herself, doubtlessly leading to chaos In American politics. The Providence is destroyed, robbing the USA of an extremely valuable source of renewable energy and a powerful weapon. And what did Russia lose? A thousand or so robots, I guess. Even without destroying New York…

The Bad Guy Wins. Zaitsev is a Karma Houdini and that Sequel Hook likely won’t be followed up on because the game didn’t sell as much as it should because fuck you that’s why. Not everyone can be Bayonetta, it seems.

Wasn’t expecting this from Platinum.

Freudian Excuse?

Meh.

Mitigating Factors?

He claims they were betrayed, and, yeah, I guess, but considering they were already a military dictatorship and were put in power by Winters specifically because they were evil already, I find it a little hollow. Why go after civilians? Why not the military? Because they’re terrorists. He’s just trying to make himself look the victim after killing hundreds of thousands.

He wants to Make the Bear Angry Again but I rarely buy that as a redeeming factor. We never see him interacting with any other members of his organisation except for the end which is entirely professional and he never exhibits care for Russia’s citizens. So there’s pretty much nothing I can see as counting.

Heionous standard?

Surprisingly an issue.

Let’s get the easy one out of the way: the guy he was speaking to at the end. It could have been anyone, a superior or inferior. However, since Zaitsev is in command of this operation and we see no one else involved, I think it’s safe to assume he’s the mastermind behind the attack on the colony and the destruction of San Francisco.

Now for the hard bit: Winters. I’m happy listing her as a Well-Intentioned Extremist and not considering her as a candidate, but she’s still pretty awful. She helped the Order, an evil military dictatorship take power to go to war with Russia to stimulate the economy. Unbeknowest to our hero, Sam, she ordered the CO of the mission and his partner, Burnes, to kill the witnesses to her corruption, including the aforementioned professor and Sam. She also orders Burnes to use the Providence to destroy Moscow in retaliation.

Like

Damn. What do I make of this?

I will argue that Zaitsev manages to breach the heinous standard just enough to pass, though: He was the one who initiated the attack, fully intending to destroy New York as well. While we don’t know what he would do after that, I presume he would have carried on with other cities until there was nothing left or the USA surrendered. Winters, on the other hand, seemed to have not wanted to use the Providence until it was used in them, presumably to even the odds. She doesn’t want Russia destroyed or to surrender, but to make war with for that fat cash. This is me speculating a little, however. Perhaps she always wanted to use the Providence, but I can find no evidence in the script for that. If I’m missing something, please tell me.

Also, remember when I said the Providence was a colony? You don’t find much evidence of it, but it’s completely devoid of life when you reach it. Did he murder almost everyone on board? I dunno. But… food for thought? I don’t think I can use this, though.

Really, he only does one thing that’s really bad the whole game, but it’s so atrocious- I cannot understate the sheer horror he wrought in San Francisco. At least 837,442.

And he wanted to do the same in New York. And he might have gone on even further.

The rest of the stuff he does is fluff for the most part. Or maybe it just seems so compared to killing a city. Like. Hell, man.

GDV?

I guess I should describe what he’s like. He’s very stoic, and his vocal pattern is always very calm and collected, but he has a certain smugness, a sense of superiority and a satisfied smile whenever he’s on screen. He likes to mock Sam on his inexperience with battle suits and thanks him for killing Burnes and robbing him of another pest. He also mocks Sam when he activates the nuke and is clearly very happy when he wins. He doesn’t have a lot of personality, but he has enough. Kinda like Ronan I guess?

Conclusion

Honestly, when I started this EP I thought he’d be an effortless keep, but now I realise just how screwy this heinous standard is. I stand by my statement, though: He is just bad enough to count and everything is on him in some way or another.

Again, San Francisco suffered horribly. And he wanted to continue. While Vanquish might be a Stealth Parody, its tropes are played straight, even if they are almost farcical at times with how America fuck yeah it is.

Zaitsev one ups and outsmarts Winters, putting himself as the top dog in the setting.

And what a vicious beast he is.

If it's not clear, I'm giving him an .

And buy this game. It's amazing.

edited 24th Feb '17 1:14:59 PM by PolarPhantom

Yes, I have the slot for Get Out.....awkward.....

Ignoring my personal opinions, I think that Comic!Michael is an easy

cor Comic! Micheal and Victor Zaitsev

edited 24th Feb '17 2:14:53 PM by G-Editor

It's fine, Austin, you called it first. I have opinions I'll share then on potential keeps.

And...yes to Zaitsev.

Comic!Michael.

Finally got around to reading that effort post.

I guess I'll wait till the write up before I make comments on what should or shouldn't be added to Michael's film page.

I... rather like the idea that Michael can never get the same thrill as when he killed his sister. It's cathartic to know he will never know true joy again, that he will always be frustrated.

to Comics!Michael Myers and Victor Zaitsev.

For Michael's write-up, I do think he should get a separate write-up for the comics, as his crimes there are varied and numerous enough to qualify him there by themselves. That said, his film write-up could stand a little expansion as well. Anybody mind if I take a swing at touching up the (film only) write-up?

I have a candidate:

What's the work?

The Cell 2. An In Name Only sequel to The Cell. None of the characters return. The only thing that indicates that the two movies are in the same continuity is that, at the very beginning, it is stated that the police and FBI in the films' universe sometimes enlist the help of civilians, with Catherine from the first movie being mentioned as an example, said while footage of the first film is playing.

Who is the character and what do they do?

The killer in this film is The Cusp, a man who kidnaps women and repeatedly tortures them to the brink of death before reviving them for more torture. He does this until they beg for death, and records their pleas and begs. The main character of the film, Maya Casteneda, was attacked by the Cusp. It's stated that he brought her back from the brink of death 6 times, and that one of those near death experiences involved him cutting her heart out. She was the only person to ever escape him. She is helping the police track him down, as the repeated near death experiences somehow gave her psychic powers that could help the police track him down.

When we first see him, he is torturing a woman. He kills her when the police draw in and escapes. When we next see him, he has kidnapped another woman named Penelope. The Cusp tortures her to the brink of death several times, such as stopping her heart with electricity and restarting it, suffocating her with a plastic bag and giving her cpr, and electrocuting her again. While this is going on, the police continue to look for him. It is revealed that The Cusp has killed 23 women. The Cusp frames the main cop, Harris, for the killings. Harris manages to convince the others that he is not the killer, and after Maya discovers The Cusps' hideout through her psychic powers, they realize that only a cop would be able to frame Harris like this. They realize that the only cop with easy access to Harris's stuff would be a cop named Duncan. Maya has already gone to The Cusps' hideout to catch him. Harris and another cop hurry to try and help Maya. Duncan overpowers Maya and prepares to torture her so bad that he destroys her mind. Duncan kills one of the cops, but Harris manages to free Penelope, though Duncan flees with Maya. Harris chases after Duncan, until they get to a stadium. Duncan threatens to kill Maya if Harris does not let him go, but Harris shoots him.

Heinousness?

Duncan, or The Cusp, is far worse than Carl Stargher from the first film. He tortures his victims for days, putting them to near death repeatedly only to bring them back from the brink of death for more torture. He electrocutes his victims, suffocates them, stops their hearts, and does other things until they are begging for death, and he records their screams. He also kills a cop and tries to torture a woman so bad that he destroys her mind. At one point, he tells Penelope that he won't stop her heart after she has begged him not to, but than does so anyway after she calms down.

Freudian Excuse?

Unlike Carl, Duncan has no tragic backstory. The closest we get is that he's afraid of the dark.

Redeeming features?

None.

edited 24th Feb '17 2:56:24 PM by bobg