Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

On the Warhammer discussion, sorry if this was brought up already, but would Asdrubal Vect qualify? The head of the Dark Eldar. There was a short story where he was...pretty horrible

His description in the lexicanum is firmly "bog-standard villainy"

There's one short story where he goes over and above that for the sole purpose of "Why not?"

Then he's an example for that short story. Not necessarily the main game, but then I am not a 40K fan.

Ok I'm going to try my hand at explaining why Maul is not a CM.

When we first meet maul he is in a pitiable state, be is clearly insane and looks underfed. His brother, Savage Oppress, has to pretty much drag him onto his ship to save Maul's life. So we have a tragic first look at the character that makes us sympathize with him, point against. While we know that he does murder the villagers we don't get to see him destroy the village or any other evil actions before he meets Obi-Wan. So he does quite a bit of off screen villainy, that's also a point against.

While he may not wear his feelings on his sleeve he does in fact care about his brother, as evidenced by how they help each other to the ship after Obi-Wan cut's off Savage's arm and Darth Maul's leg (again) if Maul did not care about Savage he would have just left him there, after all Savage had fulfilled his duty. So he cares about Savage, giant point against him being a CM.

Just because Maul calls Savage apprentice is not a reason for being a CM, after all Jedi call their padawans apprentice and so far none of them are CM's.

If you try to say that the way he treated Obi-Wan was bad, let us not forget he was captured by slavers earlier in the show, Obi-Wan has gone through worse.

@ Septimus

Given the linked nature of the WH verse is is hard for me to separate them.

Lunarcat makes a convincing argument. I think we should leave off Maul for now anyways. Season 5' still yung

edited 23rd Nov '12 2:34:39 PM by Lightysnake

If a show is ongoing, we don't put a person on unless a) their arc has effectively ended, or b) they are otherwise out of the show (dead, incarcerated with no hope of getting out, etc.).

EDIT: Holy crap that post is long!!!

Concerning Forenperser: As a native french-speaker I'll vouch for his use of "demand" being an innocent mistake; "to demand" and "to ask" are often the same verb in non-english language last I knew (in french it's "demander"). Just because my english is as good as a native speaker's it doesn't mean everybody else's is.

Yawgmoth should be kept IMO as he's clearly the vilest, most far-reaching villain in Magic (Nicol Bolas is the only one who comes close, but is still more of a Magnificent Bastard), but I agree trimming the Real Life example and expanding his crimes are a must. CMs are disturbing for more than just Nightmare Fuel shock value.

40K examples: Abaddon as-is is simply a larger-than-usual example of typical in-setting behavior; cut. Bile is an obvious keeper. Chaos Primarchs are like Septimus said, so cut too unless you elaborate on some truly vile shit they did, and on an individual basis. Tzeentch is... I mean, come on! Just the fact that he's also the god of hope should probably disqualify him, nevermind being an unknowable Cosmic Horror... Not quite familiar enough with Blood Magpie chaptermaster Azariah Kyras to weigh in yet. Asdrubael Vect could qualify (almost any individual Dark Eldar would qualify if in another setting), but we'd need contextual descriptions to consider just how much worse he is than most of his kin.

Star Wars The Clone Wars Darth Maul: Again, agree with Septimus (maybe we have the same brainwave frequency? I tend to agree with you far more often than usual for two people on this thread...). Wait for death or end of series to judge.

Ultimate!Skull: Main mitigating factor looks way too much like just a way to mess with Cap with his dying breath (especially since Ultimate!Cap is probably a big fan of The '50s-style white-picket-fence lifestyle). Other factors clearly insuficient. Keep.

Warrior Cats examples: Barring more/more numerous heinous stuff to their name, no to new candidates as-is. All three current examples (Tigerstar, Brokenstar, Scourge) look like keeps (retcons and mangas seem more like Alternate Continuity so don't count IMO).

Olive Branch: Not quite sure from the info given; if we had insight into her state of mind when doing this (i.e. is she doing it For the Evulz or does she have some kind of justification?) it would likely help. Also, the last point is too vague, and the second-to-last clearly fails the heinous standard.

Also, I'd like to bring up a cut example I think should be reinstated: Kore from the Goblins webcomic. 32Footsteps said he wanted to delete him here, but 5 pages later nobody else had chimed in one way or another, so I'm bringing him up again.

• He indiscriminately slaughters any members of traditional Always Chaotic Evil "monster" races (goblins, orcs, ogres, etc.) he meets on a one-man genocidal rampage... in a world where it's clear for readers only demons and undead can be considered such. Even defenceless elders and those begging for mercy (also their women and children, but that last part's Offstage Villainy).

• When confronted with a small child from his own race (dwarf) who was literally Raised by Orcs - but whose foster father was kind to, and raised him to be a decent person who wouldn't be afflicted by the Fantastic Racism endemic to the setting - and whose said foster father begged him to spare with his dying breath, he doesn't leave the boy there (the asshole solution), take him along to drop at a nearby settlement (the nice guy solution) or take him in to raise as another indiscriminate, merciless monster killer to spite the dead orcish foster father (the total asshole solution). No, he chooses the Moral Event Horizon solution - he monologues that even if the boy's been with the orc for about a year he's been hopelessly tainted (keep in mind this is a Dungeons And Dragons-based 'verse, where dwarves are the human equivalent of 15 at 60, meaning even a 7-8-years-old-looking kid would probably have at least about three decades of time to be "purified") and butchers the kid like any of the other humanoids he just massacred.

• When Chief attempts a You Shall Not Pass! on Kore (who utterly outclasses him) so the rest of the goblin party can escape, the standard villain would just kill him as fast as possible and try to catch up to the others or curse at their escape. Kore chooses the vile utilitarian path - after downing Chief, he heals him so he doesn't die... then submits him to Cold-Blooded Torture so his screams of pain will lure back the rest of the group. This also shows him to be a hypocrite, as he's basically using his prey's basic moral decency against them while still considering them irredeemable Always Chaotic Evil scum.

• Lastly, there's how his paladin powers (yeah, you read that right, the guy is actually a paladin) seem to work: when using his healing of Chief, a pair of spectral wings appear from his back... that are made from chains and ghostly faces screaming in agony, horror, despair or all three. Unless this is a purely aesthetic affectation, this means his paladinhood is Powered by a Forsaken Child or sixty.

• No backstory save that he's been doing what he does for a very long time (he's a legendary boogeyman for monster races), and zero revealed excuse, freudian or otherwise.

• The Fridge Horror of realising that either he never used his Detect Evil, or worse that he routinely ignores what it reveals (that his prey aren't all evil by a longshot), which dovetails his twisted world view that anyone associating with what he considers evil monsters are tainted and worthy of nothing but pityless extermination, no rehabilitation possible (like that poor dwarf kid mentionned earlier).

While definitely a Knight Templar, all the above leads me to conclude he's way too far gone to be considered a Well-Intentioned Extremist, even by D&D alignment standards. Everytime he's confronted to a moral choice he's consistently chosen the worst alternative (well he could have raped the kid to death instead of hacking him up with his axe...). IMO this puts him on par with Dellyn Goblinslayer.

So, fellow tropers, thoughts?

edited 23rd Nov '12 3:54:51 PM by Paireon

I knew I recognised the name Yawgmoth. He's the villain in the Nemesis and a bunch of the other Magic novelisations, yes? I remember reading that book when I was twelve or so, and being scared half to death of the villain.

Kore sounds like a total bastard. I'd be prepared to keep based on that description.

EDIT: A while back, Lightysnake proposed adding an entry for Ungatt Trunn to the Redwall page. Here it is:

• Lord Brocktree gives us Tsarmina's uncle, the truly vile Ungatt Trunn. Trunn believes the path of conquest is his destiny and wholeheartedly embraces it with no regard for friend, foe or family alike, abandoning his homeland because inheriting the throne from his ailing father would wound his considerable ego. Trunn is notable for his so far unique supremacist philosophy as well. His Blue Hordes are considered the 'master race' and members of the "lesser orders" are to be enslaved or wiped out He conquers Salamandastron, resulting in the deaths of many heroes, including its old badger lord, and brutally treats the survivors as slaves. His own men are terrified of him, and his personal seer only works for him because Trunn slaughtered his family long ago, something Trunn mocks him over again and again. One of the worst things Trunn does is his decision when supplies run low in the conquered mountain. He simply proposes eating the hostages they have. It's worth noting that despite his claims of superiority in everything, Trunn is wholly without honor. After being challenged to a one on one duel by Lord Brocktree, Trunn accepts, then instructs his men to murder the Badger Lord if Trunn loses the advantage.

Does anyone have any problems with it? At the time I think only I, and maybe one other person commented on it. Personally, I think he's a solid example. He's every bit the Bad Boss that Cluny, and Tsarmina are, his sadism is close to that of Slagar or Swartt, and his racism is something wholly unique to him. He's also the only villain before Gulo showed up who actually gives the idea of cannibalism serious consideration.

edited 23rd Nov '12 4:17:53 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

For the Vect example, I'd vote to keep him off. As a Dark Eldar player, I can tell you that while he's bad, he's no more evil than the rest of his race, he's just better at doing it.

For those of you who don't know what Dark Eldar are, the short of it is that the Chaos god of excess Slannesh is slowing devouring their souls, and to survive they have to rape, torture and basically inflict as much pain as possible on others to feed that energy to Slannesh in place of their souls. So literally every last Dark Eldar is a murderous, torturous sadistic rapist and live in a city where to get on top you have to kill your rivals permamently.

So Vect's only crimes that would stand out is him killing his rivals. This fails to be truly henious since said rivals were also trying to kill him, as is any Dark Eldar with an interest in advancement through the ranks (so roughly half their entire population).

Sounds like they don't have much choice either, honestly. Not only is Always Chaotic Evil in effect, they don't exactly have much in the way of moral agency. If it's rape and torture or feel intense pain, I can understand how most go the rape and torture route.

I'm going to being up The Colt from Silent Ponyville for fanfic again since I never got a yay or nay.

I'm dubious about Kore. Sounds more like Well-Intentioned Extremist taken Up To Eleven. There's a fundamental difference between having a moral compass that's completely out of whack, and not having one at all.

A while Ago we brought up Neon Genesis Evangelion and discussed SEELE.

I want to talk about The Vikings from The Secret Of Kells, and the Aliens from Independence Day which we talked about before.

I want to cut them all because they're all groups.

The Vikings only have one distinguished member because he tried to kill the Abbot, and wore his necklace (making him stick out), and that viking's no worse than the others.

SEELS's leader Keel is too ambiguous in his goals to count (does he want to destroy the world, or is he a Well-Intentioned Extremist wanting to perfect humanity).

On a side note, I sometimes think of this Clean-up as a SEELE meeting, with our avatars like the Sound Only tiles; surrounding and debating the examples.

@5011: I'm not directly well-versed with 40K, but from the cursory studies I've done for its universe, that doesn't seem to be much of a factor in Dark Eldar society. Perhaps some of the eldest of their kind were originally Driven to Villainy, but it seems like they've devolved to such a point where all of the atrocities the Dark Eldar commit seem to be done for their own sake, with the added bonus that they're prolonging their lives in the process. Still, heinousness in an Always Chaotic Evil race is an issue, so Vect would have to go far beyond the rest of his vile kin to really stand out as a villain and it doesn't sound like he does.

@5013: From how Paireon frames his situation, it seems like the emphasis is less on "I kill monsters to protect the innocent" and more on "I kill monsters because they're damnable, dirty creatures." Doesn't look like there's any kind of moral compass guiding his actions, just complete hatred.

Not going to vouch for Kore yet, though. When looking at his entry on the character page, there are a few off lines (some 'he thinks he's doing the right thing'-esque quips) that make him sound more ambiguous, albeit amidst a lot of entries that share Paireon's sentiment. I kind of want to know how the plot portrays Kore's sentiments there; if he has enough internal reflection to enforce that he thinks he's doing the right thing, or if it's an implication that might not even be part of his character.

edited 23rd Nov '12 5:54:33 PM by AquaRegia

Well, a Knight Templar by definition has warped moral compass, yet they still can be CMs, albeit rarely. And I think that he's more Beyond the Impossible (i.e. so far beyond trope standards that it doesn't really apply anymore) than Up To Eleven, considering how ridiculously narrow his so-called moral compass is.

The fact that he's ready to kill obviously non-evil sapient beings, including children, for being supposedly "corrupted" speaks volumes. In his self-justifying monologue just before killing the dwarf child, he admits that the latter isn't evil, but that a "seed" of potential evil was planted in him and that Kore doesn't want to take the chance. Right there that's admitting that killing the kid isn't strictly necessary, plus we the readers who saw the orc foster father and read about his thoughts and acts know that's total bullshit as I explained how he treated the kid.

There's also the problem of his hypocrisy as I mentioned already; to my understanding, a WIE simply can't be a hypocrite, he/she has to be truly sincere. Using your supposedly Always Chaotic Evil enemies' compassion and decency against them (through Cold-Blooded Torture of one of them, no less) can't be anything other than hypocrisy.

EDIT: Agree with the entirety of Dr Psyche's last post.

@ Aqua Regia: Agree with most of your assessment of the Dark Eldar, though they weren't really Driven to Villainy - the situation where Slaanesh slowly eats their souls was brought about because of mainline Eldar society (e.g. those not Crafworld, Harlequin or Exodites) having grown so corrupt and depraved that they basically brought Slaanesh into existence, and Dark Eldar are in fact the survivors of mainline Eldar and their descendants. So basically it's their own fault for having being sybaritic hedonists who'd make Emperor Caligula and even emperor Elagabalus (or their Historical Villain Upgrade versions, at least) reach for the Brain Bleach, and they were this on a galactic scale to boot.

And yeah, Kore's every action is basically guided by fanatical Fantastic Racism, which spills over to anybody refuting his claim even if merely in an unknowing passive sense ("A dwarf kid is Raised by Orcs and can turn out good, thereby proving my life's mission a horrifying farce!?!? UNPOSSIBLE!!!1!!!one!!1!")

edited 23rd Nov '12 6:16:12 PM by Paireon

If that's how he's actually portrayed, I can see Kore qualifying.

I concur with axing SEELE. Not only are they a group, their goals are, as Dr. Psyche noted, ambiguous as all get out. Some of the stuff Kiehl Lorenz says suggests they might even be well intentioned extremists, who see uniting humanity's conciousness as the only way to save them. Would also support cutting the other group Dr. Psyche brought up.

Will still support cutting that Dark Eldar example; as Shaoken and others have suggested, he would have to go really beyond the pale to stand out in that society.

I may be late to the party on this one but I'm with those who want Darth Maul to stay off the Clone Wars page. Between his pathetic state when we meet him, his relationship with Savage, and revelations about what it was like having Sidious for a master, I'd say he's too pitiable to qualify, at least for now.

Am awaiting opinions on Trunn at 5009.

edited 23rd Nov '12 6:31:11 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

Not overly familiar with Redwall, but by my understanding Trunn really seems like one of the franchise's vilest wastes of fur. I say keep unless naysayers familiar with Redwall make a compelling case against.

And again, I restate support for cutting Dark Eldar. They're a group, and again it's true that with the shit they do on a daily basis you'd have to be almost too horrific for us mere humans to imagine (something which 40K CMs manage to pull off more often than not, of course...). Still totally unrepentant assholes, of course, as it's usually implied (as mentioned by others) that even without needing it to survive they'd commit the same atrocities For the Evulz.

edited 23rd Nov '12 6:57:34 PM by Paireon

I am curious what happened with 32Footsteps. He had not post in this thread for at least a week already.

As for Redwall example, I never read the series (I am really planning on reading them though) but based on what I hear about him, I am in favor of including him.

edited 23rd Nov '12 6:50:17 PM by Krystoff

I vote to include Kore here

Vote on keeping Kore in too.

@Krystoff and Paireon

It's worth noting that while Redwall tends towards extreme Black-and-White Morality, and abuse of Always Chaotic Evil (especially in the later books, of which Lord Brocktree is one) Trunn is a part of a family (the rest of whom appear in Mossflower, one of the earlier, and in my opinion, better books) which doesn't fall neatly into the stereotypes. While his niece Tsarmina is a paranoid bitch who is already on the list, his brother Verdauga Greeneyes was a Retired Monster who became a ruthless, but just ruler, and his nephew Gingevere, was a thoroughly likeable young cat who ultimately fled his sister's rule. Lord Brocktree itself also includes a pair of searat brothers, Ripfang and Doomeye, who while totally vicious towards everyone else, do have a certain level of camraderie between themselves. In this light, Trunn comes off even worse.

edited 23rd Nov '12 9:36:49 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

SEELE should be erased immediately, as it's a group. A group of people who are arguably completely insane, yes, but a group nonetheless.

Also, I second Kore, that sounds beyond normal Knight Templar behavior.

edited 23rd Nov '12 9:50:51 PM by LargoQuagmire

Sorry to interrupt the exampe discussion, but since I am having a PM debate about this - is Complete Monster a trope, a subjective trope or an Audience Reaction?

edited 24th Nov '12 1:47:28 AM by SeptimusHeap

It's not an Audience Reaction, but I honestly don't know about the first two. The guidelines are rigid enough that it's not really that subjective anymore.