During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
What's the heinous standard for Fables? I'd imagine it's pretty high.
I'm pretty sure that Mary doesn't count. Her only on-screen crimes are trying to kill Bigby twice and kidnapping Crane. Her murdering Mundies is Offscreen Villainy.
Georgie loved Vivian, so he's out. The Tweedles don't break the general heinous standard, and Dee clearly cares for Dum, so they're out. Jersey never does anything bad besides being a douchebag and trying to kill Bigby. Vivian gets Redemption Equals Death.
That leaves the Crooked Man, who might qualify, but I don't know enough about the franchise as a whole to tell if he meets the heinous standard. If ordering two murders, selling out one of his minions to save his own skin, and forcing several women into prostitution is enough to meet the franchise's heinous standard, then he has my upvote.
edited 9th Jul '14 9:26:56 PM by lrrose
Going back a few dozen pages, it doesn't seem like we ever finished discussing the Clairvoyant from Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.. Anybody want to do an effortpost?
Just finished the Wolf Among Us and I'm giving a ![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
to everyone involved. Since this is the same canon as the Fables comic nobody here would stand out.
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
Yeah, we really need to hold off on Mitsuzane. His current arc is literally about whether there's any good left in him or not, and has been playing up his internal conflict - even his attempt to murder a former friend came with a great deal of effort to paint himself as a Well-Intentioned Extremist (he believes Kouta is putting humanity in greater danger by creating the false hope that they can resist the Overlords' invasion, though there's a lot of jealousy over Kouta's relationship with the leader of their dance team, Mai, mixed up in it). Notably, the heroes hold an inconclusive discussion about whether he can be saved after the attempted murder, and Kouta's all for it.
Another dynamic is Redyue. It emerged this episode that she's deliberately trying to push Mitsuzane past the point of no return for shits and giggles, underlining that it's an incomplete process as of this moment. If he was an irredeemable bundle of evil as a CM should be, there would be no narrative tension here. The episode also contrasts Kouta's reaction to Mitsuzane with his reaction to her - even the All-Loving Hero has his limits, and after determining her goals and desires, he just goes 'yeah, you evil, you die now' and straight-up tries to murder her, just like he did with her similarly irredeemable (but less heinous) fellow Overlord, Demushuu.
Finally, his apparent killing of his brother wasn't exactly premeditated. Here's how it goes down. Takatora invites Mitsuzane to a Duel to the Death. They discuss what got them to this point, and Mitsuzane yells at his brother that all he's trying to do (surrender and save half the world's population) is exactly what Takatora was trying to do as head of Yggdrasil, the resident shady human organisation of the show, before he had a change of heart (thanks to Kouta, it should be noted) and was deposed. They agree that the only way this is going to go down is with one of them killing the other (Mitsuzane is audibly tearing up at this point), and Takatora attacks. He gains the upper hand in the ensuing fight, but hesitates before landing the killing blow, and Mitsuzane reflexively shoots him. The episode ends with him staring blankly at the water his brother fell into when he was blasted back.
I think the next canon episode, and how Mitsuzane reacts to his brother's death, is going to be key. If he guilts up, and starts working to redeem himself (whether he succeeds or not), he's off our qualifier list. If it ends his inner turmoil and Redyue gets her wish as he goes completely off the deep end, we got us a brand new CM candidate.
edited 10th Jul '14 4:47:27 AM by Iaculus
What's precedent ever done for us?
The sexual slavery is the thing that leads me to the Crooked Man being an upvote. That's a crime that's unique in Fables
I want to bring up an example that hasn't been discussed before and I'm not sure on either way myself, but most people should be familiar with: Skynet from the Terminator franchise.
Terminators can practically never be a CM. The issue is that they are almost always simply machines who are programmed as assassins. They have no free will to speak of, failing on moral agency.
Skynet is very different in that regard. The whole point of the series after all is that a malevolent A.I. achieves full sentience and proceeds to exterminate humanity to ensure its own dominion. It easily qualifies in terms of heinousness, committing nuclear genocide, processing the surviving humans into death camps or harvesting them to make them cyborgs against their will, sending robotic assassins back into the past to kill an innocent woman and her child, etc. It is so powerful, operating on a global scale with a decentralized program, that virtually everything its armies do in the future can be directly attributed to it as commands coming from Skynet Central.
It's the moral agency thing that really stands out, because Terminators can in fact acquire moral agency if their primary processor is turned into "learning" mode (it's usually turned off because Skynet doesn't want them to learn and start disobeying orders). In Terminator 2: Judgment Day, the T-800 eventually understands the meaning of human life and becomes a genuine good guy, rather than one who is just a good guy by virtue of being ordered around by John. Given how Skynet is basically godlike in its intelligence and sapience, I don't quite see how it cannot have moral agency on that level itself if even the lowly Terminators have that option built in.
There's also the issue that it's mostly a Bigger Bad in the franchise, but it does make an appearance in Terminator Salvation, where it essentially gloats about its victory, showing itself to be far more humanlike than it might appreciate.
Does Skynet have moral agency? I'm not sure, but there's a strong likelihood it does.
edited 10th Jul '14 8:26:27 AM by Morgenthaler
You've got roaming bands of armed, aggressive, tyrannical plumbers coming to your door, saying "Use our service, or else!"
I thought Skynet was mostly following its directive of "protecting" humanity (you know, by enslaving us so we couldn't blow ourselves up), combined with self-preservation when its creators tried to stop it from going out of control, not so much "to ensure its own dominion" for its own sake.
That idea is pretty much debunked since Skynet's first act was to attempt to completely annihilate human civilization with a nuclear war to, literally, blow humans up. There's really no evidence that it attempted a Zeroth Law Rebellion. I understand that an original script for Salvation did include this plot point, but that is extra-canonical material at best. Every time we see captured humans it's trying to exterminate them, whether it's working them to death in slave labor camps (referenced by Kyle Reese) or marching them down an assembly line in an extermination camp.
edited 10th Jul '14 8:43:15 AM by Morgenthaler
You've got roaming bands of armed, aggressive, tyrannical plumbers coming to your door, saying "Use our service, or else!"
I made some small changes to the Grand High Witch's CM page...
Complete Monster: The Grand High Witch, the witches' leader, and easily the most vile and cruel witch that we see. At her meeting with her followers, she wastes no time berating the witches of England for only getting rid of one child a week. She has a plan to get rid of all of the children in England. When one witch gives a shocked exclamation of how impossible that is, the Grand High Witch incinerates her- a practice she makes a habit of at every single meeting she ever attends to keep the other witches on their toes. Her plan is simple: utilize a potion to turn every child in England into mice, and watch their own parents kill them. If a grown up is caught up in it, she says it's too bad for them as well. Amongst a Child Hater race, the Grand High Witch utterly outstrips the other witches in evil and cruelty, and everyone who meets her from the young hero, to his retired witch hunter grandmother and her fellow witches, are absolutely terrified by her.
Sound good?
on Skynet and everyone in The Wolf Among Us. Now let's get the clairvoyant out of the way. I'll be using the clairvoyant's real name and posting spoilers for both Agents Of SHIELD and Captain America: The Winter Soldier below.
Who is The Clairvoyant!!!
the Clairvoyant, aka John Garret, was a turncoat S.H.I.E.L.D. agent who joined HYDRA.What has he done?!!!
When he was injured while on a mission, he survived by becoming the first Deathlok. As an agent of S.H.I.E.L.D. he used his high clearance to become the Clairvoyant, the mastermind behind the Centipede Project.In 1999, Garrett recruited a young Grant Ward out of a juvenile detention facility in Massachusetts to join HYDRA. Garrett trained Ward by leaving him to fend for himself in the Wyoming wilderness. For five years, Garrett taught Ward how to survive at all costs and trust in nobody. At the end of his training, before leaving for S.H.I.E.L.D. Academy, Garrett ordered Ward to kill his dog Buddy.
When several of Garrett's officers, including Agent Dan Monroe, began to ask the wrong questions or get too close to the truth during Garrett's "investigations" of Ian Quinn, Garrett had them eliminated.
After Centipede delivered the latest Deathlok model, actually enslaved former S.H.I.E.L.D. trainee Michael Peterson, Garrett sought to have him outfitted with the latest technology. Arranging through Ian Quinn the purchase of a Cybertek Prosthetic Leg for Peterson through Cybertech Inc., Garrett lured Coulson and his team to Italy. When Skye, a member of Coulson's team, infiltrated Quinn's Italian mansion, Garrett ordered Quinn to shoot Skye twice in the stomach, forcing Coulson to seek out his own answers about his return in order to save Skye.
During the S.H.I.E.L.D. Civil War, he broke cover and fled S.H.I.E.L.D. and restarted the Centipede Project with the goal to recreate the life-saving drug GH.325, which he desperately needed to heal his failing organs. He attempted to use the knowledge given to him by the drug to take over the world, but was stopped by Phil Coulson, Deathlok and Nick Fury in the Battle at Cybertek.
Freudian Excuse?!!!
Part of his motivation was revenge for S.H.I.E.L.D. abandoning him the die after he stepped on a IED in Sarajevo. Realizing that he was more loyal to S.H.I.E.L.D. than S.H.I.E.L.D. was to him, Garrett swore that if he survived he would treat S.H.I.E.L.D. in the same manner in which they treated him.Heinous standard?!!!
Because Agents Of SHIELD is a Spin-Off of the Marvel Cinematic Universe, Garret's main competition here is the Red Skull from Captain America: The First Avenger.
Doesn't even like this username
Sky Net: It clearly has moral agency, the question is more whether or not it's on-screen enough. I'm inclined to say yes, but it's at least worthy of discussion.
Clairvoyant: Taking Red Skull and the events of Winter Soldier into account, I'm leaning towards .
One more thing. I've now watched Age of Extinction, and while I most certainly agree on Lockdown and Attinger there's something I'm not sure on re: the former's writeup. It says the Seed would wipe out all life on Earth, but that's not right, is it? I might have missed something, but my impression was that the Abusive Precursors used a lot of Seeds. At least the human scientists say it has the blast radius of a tactical nuke (LOL).
Lost in Space
Isn't Skynet a case of Blue-and-Orange Morality? Can we judge an AI in the same manner as a human character when it clearly doesn't share the same thought processes and values system?
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
On the Clairvoyant.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
If the Seed was used in a highly populated area(Hong Kong), it would consume so much of the human race that it would be brought to near-extinction.
edited 10th Jul '14 2:12:40 PM by VeryMelon
Doesn't even like this username
Good point on SkyNet.
The population of Hong Kong is 0.001% of the total population of Earth. Or would the effect continue to spread until it covers the entire world? If so, I missed that and apologize.
edited 10th Jul '14 2:22:33 PM by LordXavius
It would continue to spread. No problems Xavius. I'm also going to vote on Garret while I'm at it.
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
For Garrett. With his resources he causes nearly as much damage as Red Skull and his using of Ward is REALLY low. His Freudian Excuse doesn't fly given it not only benefited him, he's also a Narcissus and a Sociopath.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
27572: Try this:
- The Witches: The Grand High Witch is the witches' leader, and easily the most vile and cruel witch that we see. At her meeting with her followers, she wastes no time berating the witches of England for only getting rid of one child a week. She has a plan to get rid of all of the children in England. When one witch gives a shocked exclamation of how impossible that is, the Grand High Witch incinerates her- a practice she makes a habit of at every single meeting she ever attends to keep the other witches on their toes. Her plan is simple: utilize a potion to turn every child in England into mice, and watch their own parents kill them. If a grown up is caught up in it, she says it's too bad for them as well. Amongst a Child Hater race, the Grand High Witch utterly outstrips the other witches in evil and cruelty, and everyone who meets her, from the young hero, to his retired witch hunter grandmother, to her fellow witches, are absolutely terrified by her.
edited 10th Jul '14 4:04:42 PM by ACW
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
I'm going to have to say to the Clairvoyent. There are certainly villains in the MCU who are far more widespread and harsh in their evil. As for Skynet, the argument is whether it really does have proper moral agency, so I'm going to wait on that vote. I say if it does, .
I'm going to have to say to the Clairvoyent. There are certainly villains in the MCU who are far more widespread and harsh in their evil. As for Skynet, the argument is whether it really does have proper moral agency, so I'm going to wait on that vote. I say if it does, .
Regarding the Crooked Man:
I think Crooked Man could count, but there seems to be some ambiguity during the ending. Georgie claims Crooked Man ordered him to kill those girls, but Crooked Man denies that, saying Georgie "misunderstood" his orders. Vivian seems to back up Georgie's claim and Nerissa testifies that she saw Crooked Man order Gerogie to kill those women.
But Nerissa later admits she lied about that,that she did not see Crooked Man order Georgie to do such a thing, but was convinced that Crooked Man did give the order. So its Crooked Man's word against 3 other people, the game seems to imply Crooked Man is responsible for those deaths, but it does not go out and say it. Also the game ends on a Mind Screw, implying that Nerissa is Faith, making me wonder who died in episode 1.
Also Crooked Man's character sheet claims he is both Affably Evil and has standards, but I disagree, he was being polite to Bigby in order to butter him up so he would leave him alone and he got mad at Jersey Devil for pulling a gun on Bigby because it ruined his plans to try to get Bigby to leave him alone, both of those pragmatic actions, not moral ones. Considering Crooked Man had no problem trying to kill Bigby later, I would rule out any altruism on his part.
Also there a few things on Marlo Stanfield's character sheet that need addressing:
- Villainous Friendship: Cold as he is, he has a rare but somewhat affectionate relationship with Chris.
Marlo had no problem selling Chris up the river to save his own skin, so I think that friendship is very one sided.
- Pet the Dog: Keeps a roof coop for pigeons and even hires a guy to take care of them. In his case, his unique affection for animals is an indicator of sociopathy.
Marlo's relationship with his birds is not nearly developed enough to count as a true pet the dog moment.
Also did we are ever decide whether the Greek counted or not?
Also don't mean to keep on bringing this up, but I would like to know when we can make a call on 2012 Rat King, he has recently suffered a Disney Villain Death, so he may not appear for a while or he could appear early in the next season. Really in a show like this, a villain falling down a pit could mean they won't show up for a long while, if ever or it could mean he will show up again real soon. In BTAS both Joker and Clayface suffered similar fates, Joker showed again right away, Clayface didn't show up for a couple of years. So I kinda want some clarification on the wait and see policy, if its a minor villain who may or not have met their end, how long do we wait and see about them?
Here's the thing in 1987 TMNT cartoon all the villains were too silly to be C Ms, in the 2003 cartoon Utrom Shredder set the heinous bar high enough that no else was gong to reach it. In the 2012 cartoon, the cartoon is serious enough to have a CM and I don't think any of the major villains have set the bar so high, that no can catch up. Between human experimentation and Mind Rape, as well as having no redeeming characteristics, I think Rat King is the vilest villain in the show. He may have less screen time and resources then other villains, but he still seems like the worst.
Also I don't know if anyone wants to go to the Generic Doomsday Villain clean up thread I started, its not the most exciting topic to discuss, but it does related to this thread.
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=14040617320A13707900&page=1#1
edited 10th Jul '14 6:15:33 PM by TheOverlord
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Well, that Villainous Friendship may not be true, but tell me more about the birds. That may be disqualifying.
I think him treating the birds well can be equated to someone treating a houseplant well. There's no real love going on.
edited 10th Jul '14 5:07:35 PM by Camberf
Marlo had some birds he took care of, in terms of feeding them and sheltering them, but I don't think he showed any real concern for them and I think he would get rid of them if it served his purposes. I don't think its developed enough to count as a true Pet the Dog moment.
edited 10th Jul '14 5:20:44 PM by TheOverlord
Never played it, but I don't have a problem with spoilers for it.