Misused (needs wick checking/cleaning): Lady In Red

Total posts: [91]
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So can we rename this Seductive Lady In Red now?

edited 28th Nov '13 9:37:26 AM by Sackett

52 SeptimusHeap28th Nov 2013 09:42:14 AM from Laniakea , Relationship Status: Mu
With 19-11 votes, not likely.
53 shimaspawn28th Nov 2013 10:59:05 AM from Here and Now , Relationship Status: In your bunk
Calling crowner. No rename. Criteria for consensus not reached.

Go fix the wicks.
Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.

-Philip K. Dick
Is Rename and fixing wicks mutually exclusive?
Could we just... not have Death anymore?
No. But the Rename did not achieve consensus. The trope needs cleaning so that we can monitor if the Trope Decay stems from the name or the misuse.
56 shimaspawn29th Nov 2013 09:09:14 AM from Here and Now , Relationship Status: In your bunk
You need a 2:1 ratio to rename reguardless of if it's the only crowner option or not.

There will be no rename.
Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.

-Philip K. Dick
[up][up][up] That was my impression.
58 Madrugada29th Nov 2013 09:36:34 AM , Relationship Status: In season
Also, when items are "mutually exclusive", it means that you cannot both (or all) of them. You can do one or the other, but there's no way to do both at the same time. "Redefine" and "Cut" are mutually exclusive. "Redefine to <something>" and "Redefine to <something completely different>" are mutually exclusive. "Do Nothing" is mutually exclusive with any other option.

"Clean the wicks" is almost never mutually exclusive with anything else; it's normal housekeeping for a wiki — bad wicks should always be cleared away.
...if you don’t love you’re dead, and if you do, they’ll kill you for it.
59 shimaspawn29th Nov 2013 10:27:52 AM from Here and Now , Relationship Status: In your bunk
This case has nothing to do with mutually exclusive. If renaming had achieved consensus we would do it. It didn't, so we aren't.
Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.

-Philip K. Dick
61 shimaspawn1st Dec 2013 10:11:57 PM from Here and Now , Relationship Status: In your bunk
How is the clean up on this one going? Just because it's not getting renamed doesn't mean that the definition shouldn't be tightened up and the wicks cleaned.
Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.

-Philip K. Dick
62 SeptimusHeap1st Dec 2013 11:37:57 PM from Laniakea , Relationship Status: Mu
The wick cleanup as very clearly not started, given the wick count.
100 wicks down.
64 ShanghaiSlave12th May 2014 01:16:57 AM from YKTTW , Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
Pretty sure you all already know this, but Man in White and Woman in White suffer the same "person wear <colored clothes>" problem. It's not just the name, it's the description: None of them explain what doesn't count.

I have a YKTTW called Tough Boots, it suffered from the same "people wear X" problem as this trope. My solution was to add these paragraphs:
As a corollary. Certain professions where people are expected to wear boots do not count. Imagine if we allow soldiers wearing boots in a military setting here, this will just be a list of of people who wear boots. And that is Not a Trope.

Just like how Students Wear Uniform is not a trope, but School Uniforms Are the New Black is a trope because the uniform is worn outside a school setting, and hence, tells the audience something about the wearer, other than the obvious fact that he is a student.

Characters who aren't tough but wear boots simply... wear boots, or if the boots look cool, Nice Shoes.

After that was put, someone added a rather detailed example of why someone wearing boots signified him as tough (as well as cluing to his backstory).

So I think we should put something to that effect: explain why "woman wears red" is Not a Trope and explain what makes Lady in Red a trope.
Is dast der Zerstorer? Odar die Schopfer?
Welcome, traveller, welcome to Omsk
[up]Very well said!
It does not matter who I am. What matters is, who will you become? - motto of Omsk Bird
I support this action
67 ShanghaiSlave13th May 2014 12:58:36 PM from YKTTW , Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
Hmm, thinking a bit about the trope name and the definition. the problem definitely is definition.

it's focused on "sexy", when the trope actually is "Red X Marks the Hero" (or in this case, someone noteworthy female who both the characters and audience must notice).

Let's analyze a few examples:

Take Chris de Burgh's Lady in Red. check out the lyrics:

  • I never seen you looking so lovely as you did tonight
  • I never seen you shine so bright...mm hmm
  • I never seen so many men ask you if you wanted to dance
  • Looking for a little romance
  • Given half the chance
  • -
  • I have never seen that dress you're wearing
  • Or the highlights in your hair...they catch my eye
  • I have been blind
  • -
  • Lady in red is dancing with me...cheek to cheek
  • There's nobody here
  • It's just you and me

Now, what were the lyrics about? does it say anything about sexuality at all? it doesn't. It does say, however, that the woman who wore red stood out, shone in the ballroom, looked romantic'.

Now, let's take the Lady in Red of The Matrix. Why was she added as a part of Neo's training? She was there as a distraction, meant to stick out. Both for the audience and Neo. She wasn't Ms. Fanservice. She was Miss Direction, for that scene at least.

Now, lets take, ironically Little Red Riding Hood. While she's the main character and the only one we should mainly be focused on, her Red Hood pretty much sets her up as Wolf Lunch. It foreshadows danger, blood, death. EDIT: Hence Little Dead Riding Hood.

My point here, is that the trope is actually "making a woman wear red in order to mark her as important".

Tell me, in my cited examples, had it been Blue, or Yellow, or Black, or White. Out of context of the rest of the lyrics, what would you guess the song will be about? say Lady In Blue? A Broken Bird maybe? how about Lady In Black? A Femme Fatale perhaps?

On The Matrix, had she wore anything than red, cool colors would not stand out as much (they also recede especially in daytime and when raining)among the suits people were wearing, any other warm would stand out but wouldn't have much impact or symbolism.

Had Little Red wore blue, aside from having a different name, would it really have been the same story?


Red has lots of symbolism involving energy, passion, romance, and most importantly: standing out.

EDIT: damn indentation.

EDIT: minor corrections.

edited 15th May '14 9:10:23 AM by ShanghaiSlave

Is dast der Zerstorer? Odar die Schopfer?
68 SeptimusHeap15th May 2014 04:04:06 AM from Laniakea , Relationship Status: Mu
Anyhoo, ~captainpat, since I see that you started the wick cleanup, can I know which parts you've already done?
69 shimaspawn15th May 2014 07:13:26 AM from Here and Now , Relationship Status: In your bunk
First off, the traditional Little Red Riding Hood is not a Lady in Red. If a definition includes her, it's a bad definition.

The song Lady in Red is a song about a woman attracting romantic interest. That's right there in the bit you highlighted. The woman in red in the matrix was a distraction, but she was a romantic distraction aimed at a man. She wouldn't have worked on a woman the same way.
Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.

-Philip K. Dick
I'm just been going at it randomly. Most entries are either zero context examples or misusage. I got sidetrack by other repairs and stopped after 100 but I'll get back to this.

Edit: the example section for this is in bad need of a cleanup.

edited 15th May '14 7:35:12 AM by captainpat

71 ShanghaiSlave15th May 2014 08:47:47 AM from YKTTW , Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!

I'm not saying she's a lady, I'm saying red is also used to mark her for importance. (hence, Little Dead Riding Hood = little girls who wear red go dead) Although i lumped it with Lady in Red so I get ya on this one.

@ The second paragraph, that's where I'm getting at, I'm not saying

  • the trope is not actually "woman wears red", but "person wears red to mark hir important".

I'm saying

  • the trope is actually "woman wears red to mark her as important (no less)", not "sexy woman wears red (no more, no less)".

edited 15th May '14 8:54:24 AM by ShanghaiSlave

Is dast der Zerstorer? Odar die Schopfer?
[up] This trope is not an important woman in red. It's a sexy, seductive woman in red.

I started to clean the page itself. You might want to check my edits, I removed about four wicks. I plan to tag and comment-out Zero Context Examples, but probably at the weekend (if nobody does it instead).
73 ShanghaiSlave15th May 2014 09:50:38 AM from YKTTW , Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
[up] I'm saying "important", but if you read my post @67 I keep going on and on about women made to stick out by having them wear red. So yeah, "important" is just how i put it. I don't know the word for "made to stick out".

also, "sexy, seductive woman in red" is Not a Trope. or at least that kind of definition makes it "Sexy Girl Who Wears Red" which is People Sit on Chairs. since it makes it seem that any sexy girl wearing red counts, even on a Freeze-Frame Bonus crowd shot.

This is actually the source of the misuse since the current definition makes it seem "sexy girl who wears red" is the only requirement. "Name" type Zero-Context Example aside.

edited 15th May '14 9:58:10 AM by ShanghaiSlave

Is dast der Zerstorer? Odar die Schopfer?
74 Fighteer15th May 2014 09:54:44 AM from the Time Vortex , Relationship Status: Dancing with Captain Jack Harkness
The definition disclaims both of your definitions, Shanghai. It says that the woman becomes defined by her choice of red attire. Not that she happens to wear red once.
75 ShanghaiSlave15th May 2014 10:11:37 AM from YKTTW , Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!

So in this hypothetical example:

Is Dantina disqualified because she only wore the seductive dress once? despite it being a plot point for the episode?

EDIT: rereading the current definition, yes, it does say (but it's very hard to notice) that "it will become her default outfit". Why limit it to this? this pretty much limits the trope to Anime Chinese Girl, Dragon Lady, The Chanteuse, and other characters who's very likely to have a sexy red uniform. In contrast with it's general name.

Also, a lot of the current context-ed example are "worn once, but also plot point".

edited 15th May '14 10:28:19 AM by ShanghaiSlave

Is dast der Zerstorer? Odar die Schopfer?

Page Action: Lady In Red
10th Nov '13 7:32:41 AM
What would be the best way to fix the page?
At issue:
Lady In Red is supposed to be about a seductive female character (The Vamp or Femme Fatale) in a red dress. A wick check reveals that it's largely being misused for "female character wearing a red outfit".

Total posts: 91
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