TLP Crash Rescue - Fixing prematurely launched TLPs and pages

Everyone Calls Him Elf was launched with with four "Better Name" tags. It got three of them recently.

It's a bad snowclone of Everyone Calls Him "Barkeep", and has really nothing to do with everyone calling someone something, or a character not having a real name.

I'll do the big reviewing this evening - going skiing the rest of the day.

Have fun!

"Everyone Calls Him Elf" -The trope concept looks solid, calling someone by their race rather than their name. I've seen it to show the character doing the calling is some level of jerk, leading into just how much of a jerkass they are or showing character development when they start using the person's name.

To me, it sees a distinct concept from Everyone Calls Him Barkeep. That description needs work and that name's got to go, though.

Jerry Brown: Those tropes could be expanded ("multiple times" is not an example), and He's Back should be in alphabetical order, since there's really no viable reason it should be a subentry. Cool Old Guy is ZCE, and Old Shame belongs to the journalist, not Brown. He'd get a nickname trope.

Rational Fic: It looks like they're trying to work on it. Fairly active discussion. Post in discussion that the problems need to be fixed, because that's how things are done?

That quote is too darn long, though. They might want to bring it up in the General Page Quotes thread once they fix the more pressing problems

Unity United: Good work! Um, how does indexing work, please?

Frankly, I don't really like the way that the Rational Fic thing is being handled. There's something kind of territorial about it.

Think they need a bop on the shoulder to remind them that once a page is launched, it belongs to the wiki?

Skiing's over for today; after messaging all the editors that don't need this thread's attention, today's worklist will be merged with the replieslist again:

• The Echo Case Files Ragnarok: A "pending" page; messaged them.
• Everyone Calls Him Elf: Even the launcher (and most of the YKTTW) preferred the other name proposal. Seems like a case for a rename to me.
• Firepower Up: A "test" page; I'll message them.
• Heroes Shed No Tears and Stalag Luft: An uncrosswicked page by someone I already messaged, NTC3.
• Loveand Death: Stub; creator messaged.
• Rational Fic: The issue is more that there aren't many pleiotrophic^note As in, editors and people in discussion tabs that don't just care about one page/series/trope. editors working there. I've been pushing them towards working better on it.
• Analysis.System Restore: That's not an analysis; it's a reply to a question asked on another website. It contains analysis material but as-is it seems unsuitable.
• The Tenth God Of The Infinite Polygon: Stub; creator messaged.
• Unity United: Indexing, see How Indexing Works.

edited 12th Feb '14 2:53:31 PM by SeptimusHeap

With the Rational Fic, not to harp on it, but like one issue for instance is that the stuff about van Vogt's Null-A makes no sense whatsoever to someone not familiar with the work/Yudkowsky and co.'s analysis of it.

Another issue is how it kind of smacks of a prescriptive version of Sanderson's First Law- like as I understand it, Rational Fic seems to be saying that the only good speculative fiction is Hard Science Fiction (or a fantasy equivalent thereof)- I use Sanderson's First Law as a contrast, because it doesn't actually say that magic has to fit prescribed rules (or that the only good fantasy fiction uses magic of this type)- just that if you want magic to be used as a solution to problems, you avoid accusations of Deus ex Machina if your magic fits prescribed rules.

edited 12th Feb '14 9:38:05 AM by Hodor

Libertarian was brought up in ATT. No YKTTW and it was described as a mess. Then the creator, Mutualist Apistevist, blanked it.

I hollered the mods from the page and mentioned it in the thread on ATT.

It was also mentioned another trope already covered the territory.

A Useful Notes page on libertarianism (assuming one doesn't already exist) might not be a bad idea, but I don't see any point to that page.

Blanking a page after you've been told it was made incorrectly is such a frequent behaviour that I don't ever report people for doing so; I just inform them to use the Cut List instead and that we frown upon page blanking.

Anyhoo, worklist:

• Dangan Roleplay: Stub; creator messaged.
• Electroma: Looks like the wrong title to me; I've messaged the creator.
• Libertarian: I gave my thoughts on this in the discussion tab and on Ask The Tropers.
• The Tenth God Of The Infinite Polygon: Keep an eye on it; seems like the editor has problems with Zero Context Examples.
• Analysis.To The Farplane: Doesn't look like an analysis to me.

I don't really think it's necessarily saying that it has to be Hard SF (or at least the not the definition of hard SF that most of us are probably familiar with), though it does somewhat read like Rational Fic is more intelligent and therefore better.

It also has a few other problems, like some of it not being very well explained, as you mentioned (How are most people supposed to know what the Dog1/Dog2 thing supposed to be about?). There's also the problem of defining what is "rational" and the fact that there are probably going to be too few examples to count as an actual genre, and most of them from the same fanbase. Yudkowsky himself has posted in this thread a few pages back (which was ignored), basically saying that there aren't many examples he can think of. If it was up to me, I'd make it strictly about fan works that are written to make characters take more rational/scientific approach to things in their universes.

edited 13th Feb '14 9:14:13 AM by supergod

That's a really good/well-expressed point (I did read the E.Y. post a few pages back, and I will admit that it is wrong to blame him for the page's existence). But yes, I could see the page existing as for fanworks of a certain type (potentially even published works of Ascended Fanfic or things of that nature).

I wonder, would like any work that uses Giving Radio to the Romans (or the general idea of a modern person back in time) count?

On Rational Fic, I'll motion for the whole discussion to be shifted to the discussion tab Rational Fic Discussion - most editors are working there, commentary will just be missed if posted here.

• Evolve: Stub work page; creator messaged.
• My Little Pony: Equestria Girls – Rainbow Rocks: Stub work page; creator messaged.

I'm sorry for jumping the gun on the Libertarian page and not reading the Discussion page.

Today's worklist:

• Arcade The Comics Revue, Cahiers Du Cinema and RAW: Still in need of trope examples.
• In Which You Explain What Your Post Is About: Stub article under a line of dialogue, already cutlisted.
• FanficRecs.The LEGO Movie: Empty fanfic recommendations page.
• Saving Abel: Exampleless work page; creator messaged.

@Candi: Technically speaking, there is some leeway on action here, since page blanking has always been severely frowned upon. I personally prefer a surgical approach to this though.

Doubleposting because of SlidingScale.Too Dumbto Live - if nothing else, it seems like the improper namespace. Also, Hive City - another trope without YKTTW.

edited 14th Feb '14 3:35:23 PM by SeptimusHeap

SlidingScale.Too Dumbto Live: Ah, needs a lot of work to be a viable sliding scale. The title needs the second 'T' capitalized in the wiki name; it's coming across as sloppy. Kick to YKTTW?

Hive City: Might be a viable idea if the trope doesn't exist, but the description needs work, and I don't know if that title is the best, since the first thing I thought of were genuine Hive Cities, with mutated or alien bugs. Kick to YKTTW for work.

edited 14th Feb '14 6:40:35 PM by Candi

I thought the wiki was trying to work away from Sliding Scale tropes, anyway.

I think we need a second opinion with Wallbonking. The YKTTW is here. It has just been launched under the name Wallbonking, which I think is a snappy name and it's apparently derived from a per-existing term. The problem is that there was a name crowner and the winning option was Pathfinding Error. While I think Pathfinding Error is dry, and not as accurate as its supporters believe, it was winning the crowner. The sponsor seems intent on making this a SPOON vs. FORKS issue, having some ownership issues, and launched the trope under Wallbonking to "win" the argument.

Can we get some opinions on the matter? Aside from the name, I think it was set to launch. I do prefer the current name than the alternative from the crowner, but a consensus is a consensus. If the page is in good shape, the name works and the crowner was in the wrong, then great. I just don't think it was properly launched per guidelines.

edited 14th Feb '14 8:38:58 PM by Rotpar

Worklist of today:

• Aura Kingdom: Work page with insufficient examples; creator messaged.
• Everyone Calls Him Elf: Need more opinions.
• Hakoniwa Gakuen: Stub article.
• Hive City: Needs more opinions.
• SlidingScale.Too Dumbto Live: Frankly, I am inclined to cut under the "namespace inaccurate any other considerations nonwithstanding".
• Analysis.System Restore: Need more opinions.
• Wallbonking: Aye, seems quite clear that we've got ownership issues here. The name isn't that bad, but the tone of the conversation makes me inclined to think that they need to be reminded of how this wiki operates.
• Would Rather Suffer: Is this a violation of the line of dialogue rule? Also, I am getting somewhat tired of this troper not crosswicking their pages.

Would Rather Suffer -tapdances at the edge of the line at best. And not crosswicking pages after multiple reminders is starting to get a little on this side of rude.

Wallbonking: Yep, the creator needs to reminded that he's an editor and contributor on a team-effort wiki, and only the Fast One and the Janitor own anything.

Analysis.System Restore: ....I can't make head or tails of that. Is analysis supposed to be for works? (I think it's for a work.) I associate it with the use of tropes in works.

Sliding Scale. To Dumb to Live: If it's in the wrong namespace, it'll have to be moved anyway, and it needs a lot of work.

Hive City/Everyone calls him elf: My opinions are still the same as earlier.

I was one of the vocal supporters of the name Wallbonking for its clarity, wittiness, and the fact that it's an existing term. I do believe the issue here is Democracy Is Bad. I encouraged the OP to push through with the name in the belief that the crowner was heading into bad, bad direction, with nothing but ambiguous suggestions.

John Barleycorn and Friends had an opposite situation on it. it had a Vocal Minority voting against the winning name by virtue of Creator Provincialism and Popcultural Osmosis Failure (the detractors have never heard of the term).

the crowner was up for a while with Mr Booze And Friends winning, then JBAF (damn, that's long) suddenly got an influx of votes and won the crowner, the OP there has won despite his choice name having Trope Namer Syndrome and fails to be Clear Concise Witty.

what i'm saying here is, name voting is inherently flawed. a good name could lose because people voted a bland name, so sometimes the OP himself must ignore the vote if the winning name is objectively obscure or bad, and there are obvious, easily seen ambiguities in the winning name.

I recall there was no crowner on that, and no one really complained that much on the name, which is why it was chosen. had there been people actually complaining in the comments(instead of you know, tag voting) it could have gotten a less ambig name, like say, the suggested Race-Name Basis.

edited 15th Feb '14 3:32:08 AM by ShanghaiSlave

Then please make a forum thread to discuss it.

The way the wiki works is the greater consensus decides items that require it. It has stayed that way because generally, it works.

Also, ownership issues come under close scrutiny due to past trouble with such, both of pages and the works on some. The pages belong to the wiki, and one person, or a tiny group of people, are not allowed to claim control.

I'll leave the discussion of telling the OP to 'push ahead' to wiser and more patient heads than mine.

edited 15th Feb '14 3:37:34 AM by Candi

I'll take full responsibility for my actions. I knew I was treading on ice, but the crappy winning name had to go.

I wholeheartedly agree with Shanghai Slave. The name that won the crowner is not only dry but a Non-Indicative Name, implying a navigational screw-up rather than the action of repeatedly slamming into the wall.

I admit I did let my card-carrying FORKS sympathies run out of control, but my reasoning still stands.

edited 15th Feb '14 6:06:13 AM by BaffleBlend