Badass tropes - now on: Action Girl

Agreed. As currently written Badass Princess is basically "a princess has something that makes her dangerous and/or awesome". That's why I suggested narrowing it down. Yet how do we do that in a way that is not redundant?

1. . Princess as a military officer? Genderflip of Warrior Prince.
2. . Princess as politically savvy and capable? Politically-Active Princess.
3. . Princess that goes on adventures? Lady of Adventure
4. . Princess that looks sweet and demure but is actually sly and physically skilled? Silk Hiding Steel
5. . Princess that is not a Girly Girl and/or enjoys roughhousing? Tomboy Princess.
6. . Princess that is a not a "doorstop" or a kidnap victim? Damsel out of Distress.
7. Princess that genuinely is an Upper-Class Twit but is still dangerous in some fashion? Beware the Silly Ones+Princess.

The more I think about this, the harder it is to find something to salvage.

That first one does have some unique aspects to her compared to him, with Best Her to Bed Her style things, unwanted marriage proposals, and fighting attempts to get rid of her by political enemies by getting her married off to some other kingdom etc. A counterpart trope would be the best IMO.

For 3 they are explicitly not Lady of Adventure 99% of the time, many times their identities are hidden and such.

Also I am a bit meh on 4, the way its usually told is very much a bait and switch arc for princesses which I would say is unique.

edited 17th Feb '17 3:09:43 PM by Memers

Yeah, I mean, that pretty much touches all bases. We'd just have to give Warrior Prince a neutral name to include Warrior Princesss and that's that.

A cruel, sick joke is still a joke, and sometimes all you can do is laugh.

the first paragraph of Rebellious Princess is almost literally the 'not a doorstop' trope.

I disagree on your point about no.4 because that "bait and switch" arc is the entire point of Silk Hiding Steel, and the character being a princess holds no additional significance, since the "princess" title is frequently a needless throw-in for Garnishing the Story.

Personally, I'm inclined to just cut the name Badass Princess since the definition is way too vague. But then we do have the wicks and inbounds to worry about.

Given Memers' and Novelist's points, I'm inclined to disambiguate this trope between the different meanings and salvage the wicks based on that.

For the "Princess as warrior" type, I'd also add Lady of War to the list if they still fit the "air of grace" part.

edited 18th Feb '17 7:38:13 AM by Morgenthaler

You've got roaming bands of armed, aggressive, tyrannical plumbers coming to your door, saying "Use our service, or else!"

@1901's list seems to lack a "fighter" example, however.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

All the possible ways a 'princess who fights' are covered by girl who fights. Cute Bruiser, Girly Bruiser, Lady of War, Waif-Fu, Glacier Waif, She-Fu, Warrior Prince, Kicking Ass in All Her Finery, etc etc.

Samus Is a Girl when its unexpected, Sweet Polly Oliver when its intentionally hidden. Amazonian Beauty / Amazon Brigade if it's expected of her culture (or just her appearance)

And even non-gendered fighter tropes like Boisterous Bruiser, Blood Knight, Cultured Warrior etc.

If there's something specific about "nobles having formalized fight training", I feel like you could just tack that on to the definition of Warrior Prince.

edited 18th Feb '17 8:13:54 AM by acrobox

I would say Action Girl, but that trope went through some redoing of its own, didn't it?

Yeah, I'm up for tacking that to Warrior Prince and making the name gender neutral. We'd just have to stress that trope is for royals/nobles as military leaders and/or with formal combat abilities.

edited 18th Feb '17 8:15:59 AM by erazor0707

A cruel, sick joke is still a joke, and sometimes all you can do is laugh.

Action Girl was supposed to go through a similar thing as genera Badass, as it had gotten to the point where the definition was as vague as "girl who fights at least once" or "girl with a CMOA" or "playable female character in a video game."

And to cut it if any other trope more specifically defined what kind of fighter, or what context she fights in.

A bit wary that Warrior Prince is an active warrior not a mere fighter and that the gender implications are vastly different.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

I'm with Septimus Heap. A prince is expected to go into battle when there's a war and he's generally a leader in that battle. A princess is not traditionally expected to even have weapons training. They're different things.

OK, that I had no idea of...

A cruel, sick joke is still a joke, and sometimes all you can do is laugh.

To be honest, that really depends on the setting.

yeah that's not a blanket statement at all.

It could be just as likely that the prince is expected to Stay in the Kitchen because they can't risk the heir to the throne dying on the frontlines.

Except this is fiction(never mind in real life), where a prince and princess are very often given different expectations. It's significantly more common that a prince will fight compared to a princess who is taught to act proper and not fight at all.

Keep them separate, since they're extremely different in how they're presented most of the time. There are exceptions, but they aren't super common exceptions to make the prince and princess identical enough to combine the tropes.

In fiction, there can be anything. That's the point of fiction. Looking at historical trends of princes and princesses in stories only gives a snapshot of a given range. Trends can be flipped around or forgotten over time. If they are "extremely different" then let's see that argument because all I'm seeing are vague generalities: "most of the time", "most common", "very often given".

1. Comparative lists
2. paragraphs of details
3. a draft for a Warrior Princess as distinct from Badass Princess.

Something to support your argument.

Why is Badass getting deleted but Badbutt being left alone?

Never trust anyone who uses "degenerate" as an insult.

Actually, even without taking this thread into consideration, Badbutt has always struck me as kind of a huge mess in its own right. It should probably be covered at some point.

Yeah, its not really 'badass for kids' like the name suggests its 'edginess but preteen friendly'.

Why are we talking about Bad Butt? I thought we were working on Badass Princess.

Bumb! We can talk about the differences in expectations, roles, etc. between princes and princesses as a whole but if we accept that both of them are warriors then what the is difference? Is it the same distinction as Father, I Don't Want to Fight for princes and You Go, Girl! for princesses? Perhaps the difference is Guys Smash, Girls Shoot? Come on, engage with me on this, what is the "extreme" difference?

Certainly, we can agree it is possible to have a setting where Gender Is No Object such as when royalty is expected to defend the realm and ensure peace.

You were already told this. Men and Women have vastly different expectations. Thus, trying to merge a trope about two unique genders(so to speak on the term, but let's not be picky here, you get what I mean) makes no sense.

While it does suck that they aren't treated equally, the fact remains they aren't. It's separated because what is expected of them as a Prince and as a Princess is vastly different. Everybody excepts a Prince to fight. Nobody expects a Princess to be anything but prim and proper.

The idea that both can fight and do a lot of things is nice, but the problem is there's clearly context. A prince isn't just badass because he can fight. He has to do major feats to truly earn that title, because otherwise it's just the normal thing you see, and not all that impressive to the story. And even then, it's easier for them, making it still a different type of trope.

For a Princess, they go out of their way to purposely train or do things in secret to become a fighter. This is something they aren't naturally allowed to do in most stories, so it becomes far more impressive, and may even bring about a unique moral lesson for the story about equality.

The implications and applications of each trope are pretty clearly varied. So I again say "they are not alike and merging them is a bad idea."

I think Warrior Prince should be able to include female examples from settings where Gender Is No Object, but that's by no means true of all settings.

I think that'd just confuse things though. It would seem weird to have Warrior Princess if Warrior Prince would allow female examples. Either all the female examples go to its own trope, regardless of the setting, or remove the distinction altogether.