Needs a re-name: Yangire

Great trope, had no idea it existed till I found it via Wiki Magic. People would not know from the Japanese title alone what it means. Should have far more Western examples.

Main/Yangire found in: 630 articles, excluding discussions.

This title has brought 5,286 people to the wiki from non-search engine links since 20th FEB '09.

You're gonna need a little bit more than "I don't like the name" for this one. There are about a dozen nice, clear redirects. Is there misuse? If there's not enough western examples, then add more.

It's another one of those Japanese words that applies to all forms of media. Just like Nakama was renamed to True Companions, this one can be renamed to something more prevalent like Unstable Craziness or something.

Not going to happen, buddy. It's a sister trope to the -dere tropes. This one you might be able to get away with a decent alternative name (which exist as redirects already), but the others pretty much can't be renamed because there is no clear concise phrase for it other than the existing terms, which happen to be Japanese, because they were identified as a concept (Identified, not invented of course) there. I think unless you could rename all of them to something that makes sense, then we shouldn't rename this one.

(Nakama was a weird case, I was always confused why it had been named that anyways. It's not like the concept was identified in japan like the dere tropes, although in English we don't really have a special word for it, it just gets driven home when a character says "Don't mess with my friends!")

edited 25th Aug '11 8:01:21 PM by NoirGrimoir

I agree with renaming.

Under the new policy of renaming for clear names this one ought to be renamed.

Yandere would be harder to get a good rename for, plus it's hooked in with the rest of the -dere tropes.

But Yangire can surely be renamed. Heck, it will probably stop the constant misuse and confusion between Yandere and Yangire.

Some of the redirects are pretty awful though.

I'd say the closest of the current one is Sweet Psycho. Basically she has a sweet surface personality but she's crazy and broken underneath. And not the nice crazy, usually the Ax-Crazy. At the least the cruelly emotionally manipulative kind of crazy.

edited 25th Aug '11 8:18:49 PM by Sackett

I see no reason why we can't give this a normal English name so people outside the Anime Ghetto can understand it, and let the folks in the aforementioned Ghetto use the Japanese redirect if they want. Sticking with an obscure foreign word for the sake of consistency in a small subset of works strikes me as a badly messed up set of priorities.

And changing a trope that haven't ever presented any problem just for the sake of changing is also a badly messed up set of priorities in my book.

Oh, yeah "not clear" means fucking nothing if no one ever misuse/misunderstood. It is clear enough then.

edited 25th Aug '11 8:19:33 PM by Heatth

Well just looking through a lot of the related pages shows that its barely used outside the Anime/Manga genres despite the fact that I reckon it would be a much more universal trope if it had a name more people universally understood.

I think Yangire is fairly straight-forward to rename, the concept is much less wordy than say Tsundere.

Severe underuse outside the ghetto for a bog-standard trope like this which already has some pretty clear redirects is a very strong argument for a rename. Strong enough that I wouldn't be surprised to see unilateral action out of the fast one.

Now if you'll pardon me, I'm going back to watching Excel Saga.

edited 25th Aug '11 9:04:53 PM by Xtifr

Can we get a wick check regardless? And maybe keep an eye out for what mediums its being used in the process. I haven't seen this misused, but Sackett mentioned something about it being confused for Yandere a lot. Let's see how this is doing before doing anything rash.

Although Xtifr's idea about just encouraging use of one of the better redirects is a good one, rename or no.

Yes, sever underuse in some medias is reason to rename. With 630 wicks, I don't think such underuse is obvious, if existent at all.

Wick check would be good, yeah. And misuse for Yandere is definitively a reason for rename. I never noticed it, however. Quite the opposite, in fact (people misusing Yandere for Yangire. Definitivelly worth checking, anyway.

Main/Yangire found in: 631 articles, excluding discussions.

This title has brought 5,288 people to the wiki from non-search engine links since 20th FEB '09.

Does Cute But Crazy (dere type switching) and the viewer is still intended to be sympathetic or consider them still cute (with no love interest) actually occur much outside of Anime?

edited 25th Aug '11 11:32:54 PM by Raso

Never mind, I'll wait till I have the time look into it properly

Yes, cute on the outside/psycho on the inside is a widespread storytelling device.

edited 25th Aug '11 11:28:55 PM by Falco

Yes, it occurs. Very very frequently. It's an amazingly common character type across all media.

I dont know most of the ones I see are not even close to being remotely sympathetic or cute once the reveal happens. They all come off as more Stepford Smiler in good girl mode once the reveal happens. As well as good girl to crazy girl and never switching back is not this trope.

I am not saying it's exclusive I just think it doesn't happen as much as you think. And the other types are already covered by like 50 tropes.

edited 26th Aug '11 12:05:54 AM by Raso

That part about the audience still finding them cute/sympathetic after the reveal is NOT in the trope description by the way.

I looked at the first few pages, and only spotted a tiny handful of western works, all but one of which were western animation or comics (not surprising that there's overlap between anime/manga fans and western animation/comics fans). The lone exception I spotted was Alice In Wonderland.

So I started looking at how it's used in other tropes, starting from the top. Note that these are just tropes, not works, as I was curious how it was being used in examples. Here's what I found:

• "I Know You're in There Somewhere" Fight: anime example
• Bitch in Sheep's Clothing: western film
• Everything's Worse with Bears: western animation
• If I Can't Have You…: anime example
• Abuse Is Okay When It’s Female on Male: western music
• Abusive Parents: anime example
• Action Girl: anime example
• Alternative Character Interpretation: anime and western animation
• Ambition Is Evil: anime example
• Angel Face, Demon Face: anime example
• Annoying Younger Sibling: anime example
• Asian Airhead: western film (but japanese character)
• Ax-Crazy: see also
• Badass Adorable: anime example
• Bait the Dog: anime example
• Beware the Nice Ones: see also
• Blood Knight: video games
• Chainsaw Good: japanese film
• Cold-Blooded Torture: webcomics (japanese themed, mentions Chris-chan)
• Crapsaccharine World: anime example
• Creepy Crossdresser: anime example
• Creepy Sexy: anime example
• Curtains Match the Window: anime example
• Deconstructed Trope: anime example
• Deliberately Cute Child: anime example
• Despair Event Horizon: anime example
• Dogged Nice Guy: anime example
• Dominatrix: video games
• Every Girl Is Cuter With Hair Decs: anime example
• Evil Is Sexy: anime example
• Evil Redhead: anime example
• Fingore: anime and literature (Stephen King)
• Freudian Excuse: web original
• Full-Frontal Assault: anime example
• Funny Schizophrenia: anime example
• Genki Girl: anime and video games
• Girl with Psycho Weapon: see also
• Glacier Waif: anime example
• God Save Us from the Queen!: anime example
• Gold Digger: anime example
• Good Lawyers, Good Clients: video games
• Good Smoking, Evil Smoking: anime example
• Grey-and-Gray Morality: western film
• Hime Cut: anime and japanese film
• Honey Trap: anime example
• Hot Chick with a Sword: anime example
• How Do You Like Them Apples: anime example
• Husky Russkie: anime example
• Idiosyncratic Ship Naming: anime example
• Idiot Hair: anime example

That's 50, right? Not a misuse check, but I think it shows very clearly that we have a problem and what it is. Again, these are just tropes. I skipped works and work pages, but checked every trope I spotted, starting from the top, till I got to 50.

edited 26th Aug '11 12:44:55 AM by Xtifr

That's a problem Yangire are that. They go from Energetic Genki Girl to murderous with a laugh then back again or exchange elements back and forth. They arnt Stepford Smiler s because both sides of the coin are their trueselves I would almost call them Lovable or Cute Berserkers. (though Berserk is just one type of crazy it's like that cute then blood lust and cute again.) both sides of the coin are portrayed cutely and/or sympathetic in the same vein as Yandere.

a few of those potholes seem very gratuitous...

edited 26th Aug '11 12:57:14 AM by Raso

I think the CHOPSTICKS crowd will want something more scientific, but that looks like pretty compelling evidence to me that there's something wrong here.

Eddie's been coming down really hard on the chopsticks crowd recently; I'm not too worried about them. I'm sure none of them want another "Shonen Genre" hard-coded rename! :)

Anyway, I'm not sure how much more scientific they could ask for. The fact that my sampling started at the top should, if anything, actually favor them, if people have been cleaning up (though I'm not sure how one "cleans up" not having examples).

as I said, I wasn't looking for misuse, but if some of those potholes are gratuitous, that suggests that anime fans are overusing the term, while the everyone else is mostly ignoring it. Both are problems.

edited 26th Aug '11 1:03:24 AM by Xtifr

I am sorry but don't be rude! We do not need another flamewar.

Anyway I am on the side of splitting, leave the page as is then move western examples and such that dont fit to a related trope like was done on Yamato Nadeshiko. This is a preexisting term that we did not start and most of the western examples do not quite fit.

I'm sorry if you think I was rude, and I apologize for whatever it was you took offense at, but I confess that I have no idea what it was. I'm an anime fan (though not at otaku level); I just tried to learn from some of Eddie's recent actions.

I stated a simple fact: Eddie has been coming down hard on chopsticks names recently. You're reading way too much into my simple statement. My arguments and evidence have nothing to do with chopsticks, pro or con. (If I'm treading on the grounds of previous flamewars, I apologize, but it was done out of ignorance and lack of interest in the debate, rather than to fan any flames.)

edited 26th Aug '11 1:13:33 AM by Xtifr

Way to respect the opinions of people who disagree with you, there.

Okay. Why not? And please do not start listing a bunch of specific examples - I want to know the details of how this trope as a whole is different In Japan then it is in the west. Yamato Nadeshiko is a Japanese-specific trope because it's about the "traditional Japanese woman". I don't see anything like that here.

edited 26th Aug '11 1:06:12 AM by nrjxll