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Courtesy link: Creator.Jimmy Savile
^ Thanks.
Jimmy Savile isn't a complete unknown, I heard about in Canada. I could see the benefits of making it a tropeless Useful Notes page instead, but I don't think ignoring it makes anything different
Absolute destiny... apeachalypse?
Keeping it locked is good enough. Scandal or not, he was a legitimate creator.
I had a dog-themed avatar before it was cool.
We use the creator namespace to describe actors and entertainers.
Although we don't have an index of DJs, we do have one for Presenters, so that's not a valid argument against his tropeworthiness. And as for lost media, I actually don't know what the policy is on that; I know a work needs to be publicly accessible to be troped, but I'm not sure whether that's applicable to media that was once accessible, but isn't anymore. We need to have a wiki talk thread about that at some point.
Edited by Serac
Most Savile material isn't technically lost; it's Keep Circulating the Tapes at best.
I had a dog-themed avatar before it was cool.
As an American I learned about Savile through this wiki, yes, but that was because of material discussing his television work - Jim'll Fix It, Top of the Pops, that one Doctor Who episode, a Tweenies parody...granted, I heard about many of these as they were listed on Harsher in Hindsight, but they're still works. There's some relevancy here.
I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.
Ok thanks for your responses. Looking back over this I think I may have been a bit too hasty in calling for the cut, as all of you have made valid points and I'm not too convinced by a few of my arguments on review. Sorry about that and thanks for your time.
Edited by Atlantis1930
For the reasons already mentioned I'm against cutting the page. Also, the 3rd point isn't really relevant, since on TV Tropes it's allowed to have Creators/Work pages about things that don't get out of their native country.
Could we cut Friend to All Children from his page. That feels in bad taste.
Long-Runners is also for works Last time I checked so is misuse too.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
^ Friend to All Children fits for his depiction on the show, not his real-life persona. Maybe we can add a note specifying that only his fictional self fits here? Such notes were there before but were cut for troping real life, but I don't mind re-adding the note just to prevent Unfortunate Implications that we somehow see the man himself as a Friend to All Children.
(Also, that edit history is wild!)
Edited by mightymewtron I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.
I'm going to agree with everyone here; just keep it locked. We could probably add it to Infamous And Controversial Works (despite the name, there is a folder for Creators) to ease the complaining.
Edited by WoodKnapp94
^ Just added him to the page. How's my write-up?
TRS Queue | Works That Require Cleanup Of Complaining | Troper Wall
Horrible as child abuse is, I want to state for the record that whether somebody is a good person or not has absolutely nothing to do with whether they get a trope page.
Honestly, the Friend to All Children trope does make me uncomfortable, as well as how his description almost entirely glosses over his crimes, other than a single short and vague mention in the last sentence.
Yeah, I just realized the description just says "A year later, ITV broadcast a documentary about Savile that triggered a police investigation into the biggest sexual abuse scandal in British history," conveniently avoiding directly mentioning that he himself was a sexual abuser. The only part of the page that really directly mentions it is the Undermined By Reality entry. There's got to be a better balance to strike here.
Edited by mightymewtron I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.
There used to be several mentions of the abuse in the "friends" entry. One going "In reality, however, he was most certainly not." another "In hindsight, it seems a lot darker and less friendly.".
The guy that deleted them both also added the "Do not add tropes pertaining to Savile's real life. They are not within the scope of the wiki." comment which kinda veers into feeling like its whitewashing.
Maybe we could do something similar to the Marion Zimmer Bradley page (an author who sexually abused numerous children along with her husband) where there's a short line at the end of the bio section about it. It seems to have worked for that page. I'm thinking that just adding a quick summary which at least addresses it is the way to go here.
So perhaps change the last paragraph of the bio at the top of the page from:
His death on 29th October 2011 led to a two-hour tribute programme that aired on the BBC. A year later, ITV broadcast a documentary about Savile that triggered a police investigation into the biggest sexual abuse scandal in British history.
To something like:
A year after Savile's death on 29th October 2011, ITV broadcast a documentary that contained numerous allegations that Savile had sexually abused children, allegations which grew into the hundreds in the weeks that followed and triggered a police investigation. This has irreparably tainted his life and career following his death.
I'm not suggesting we trope Real Life here, but at least now it's been addressed. I'm simply not comfortable with the page description as it stands.
Edited by Atlantis1930
^ That looks good.
I don't like the Friend to All Children entry that much, but the tacked-on real-life troping ^^ is against wiki policy whether the creator is disgraced or beloved.
Hi there, I didn't really know where to post this request as I haven't ventured onto this side of the website yet, but here we go. I am hoping to argue that the Jimmy Savile page should be cut and relegated to the permanent red link club. As can be seen in the discussion section of this page, there are quite a few tropers who want to see this page struck from the wiki and I am one of them. It has been nothing but a controversy magnet and, in my opinion, reduces the quality of tv tropes with its very presence.
Just for reference to save anyone who doesn’t know this ‘Creator’ from having to google, as the page doesn’t give much by way of detail: Jimmy Savile was a well-known TV presenter and philanthropist who died in 2011, and it emerged soon after his death that he was a prolific child molester who had abused hundreds of children during his lifetime.
Now, here are my reasons as to why I believe this page needs cutting and relegating to the red link club:
1. This page was created at the exact time that the posthumous controversy about Savile emerged and seems to have been made with the express purpose of troping all of these real life events. As a result, the page was locked after a length of time because too many people were using it for this. Without that, the page is completely bare bones and has very little by way of actual content. This also means nothing else can be added, due to the page being locked.
2. Jimmy Savile, despite being listed as a “creator”, did not create a single thing! If this was someone like the Marquis De Sade, where there was actual work that could at least be argued to be important to philosophy and literature I could understand. But this guy had nothing, no legacy and certainly nothing that would bring anything of value to this wiki. He was just a television presenter and occasional DJ and, because of the scandal, none of his shows will air on tv again and have also been locked in the BBC archives. Because of that, nothing he actually did is tropable, which means his presence here is pointless and will only detract from the quality of the wiki!
3. Many people viewing this will probably not live in the UK and thus will have no idea who Savile actually is. Outside of the UK, Savile is a complete unknown. On top of that, having a page like this will only invite controversy, as it’s effectively a page about a prolific child abuser which briefly mentions his crimes and literally nothing else. What's more, many of his victims are still alive and no traumatised person benefits from seeing a page of the person who abused them here!
Those are my reasons. However, I want to know what everyone here thinks. I hope I’m not courting controversy here; I apologise in advance if so. However, I remain deeply concerned by the presence of this page on the wiki, and don’t think it contributes anything of worth.
Edited by Atlantis1930