Follow TV Tropes

Ask The Tropers

Go To

Have a question about how the TVTropes wiki works? No one knows this community better than the people in it, so ask away! Ask the Tropers is the page you come to when you have a question burning in your brain and the support pages didn't help. It's not for everything, though. For a list of all the resources for your questions, click here.

Ask the Tropers:

Trope Related Question:

Make Private (For security bugs or stuff only for moderators)

31st Jul, 2020 12:07:22 PM

As an outsider, the most confusing part here is claiming that the prominence of a supposedly already unpopular character is pandering to the base.

31st Jul, 2020 12:39:41 PM

As someone who's still watching the 9th Doctor's episodes, I can't say whether this is legitimate or not. What I can say is that it violates Natter, Example Indentation, and is written in a tone that screams "this show suuuuucks and here's why!!!".

Just Kill It with Fire and, assuming there's a legitimate issue here, start from scratch. No use trying to salvage anything from this mess.

Edited by RoundRobin
31st Jul, 2020 02:55:42 PM

Soooo... one extreme of the fandom says Moffat's writing is misogynistic, and this extreme says he's misandrist feminist-pandering... And since when is "the base" of Doctor Who feminists? "Emasculated" Capaldi?!

(And er if you ask the Ho Yay and Foe Yay Shipping parts of the fandom, Dating Catwoman vibes were done well before Twelve/Missy. Just sayin')

31st Jul, 2020 06:45:02 PM

Yuck.

In addition to the above, based on another ATT report, Phelan may also be a ban evader. I'd say cut that whole thing.

31st Jul, 2020 11:19:54 PM

^At least one mod already confirmed that they're a ban evader and gave permission to revert their edits.

Edited by GastonRabbit
1st Aug, 2020 07:32:25 AM

Confirmation that Phelan was a ban evader and we have the ok to revert their edits can be found here.

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/query.php?parent_id=90396&type=att

Edited by sgamer82
8th Aug, 2020 01:51:07 AM

Okay I am Phelan under a new handle. I am not a ban evader. Well technically I am, but I am being upfront about it here. I was unfairly banned by user Fighteer (who should be cautioned for abusing his mod powers.) I'll get to why my ban was unfair in a minute, but first onto the issue at hand.

My edits about the Capaldi era were NOT sexist. You can't just smear people as misogynists at the drop of a hat.

1/ The Capaldi era did pander to the more extreme SJ Ws or regressive left, whatever you want to call them.

The SJ Ws for want of a better term smeared Moffat as a sexist, a racist, a homophobe from 2010-2012. They chased him off of twitter, the smear campaign made its way into the mainstream media. When you googled Moffat back then, the first suggestions that came up were "is a sexist, is a homophobe, is a racist."

Here are Moffat's own words on the smear campaign.

"I think its one thing to criticise a programme and another to invent motives out of amateur psychology for the writer and then accuse him of having those feelings. I think that was beyond the pale and strayed from criticism to a defamation. I’m certainly not a sexist, a misogynist. It was wrong."

Here are the links to examples of the smear campaign against Moffat.

http://dont-u-think-he-looks-tired.tumblr.com/post/91678683811/brilliantfantasticgeronimo-linnealurks#notes

http://dont-u-think-he-looks-tired.tumblr.com/post/92210449111/the-wolf-in-the-police-box-theamazingcat#notes

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwijnfPw9ebNAhVjJcAKHUaVA1cQFggjMAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dailymail.co.uk%2Fnews%2Farticle-2330872%2FDiscriminate-Discriminate-Doctor-Who-branded-thunderingly-racist-academics--conquers-Daleks-slavery--likes-cricket.html&usg=AFQjCNF0rQjIdLj04a5trjYYn29CmDTGsQ&sig2=vDMRAqOLTYYL_TjM0rRkHQ&bvm=bv.126130881,d.ZGg

http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2014/may/30/has-doctor-who-become-more-sexist

There's plenty more where that came from.

As you can see from the above quote this backlash bothered Moffat and the BBC themselves.

Here from the BBC.

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&cad=rja&uact=8&sqi=2&ved=0ahUKEwji-YqBmefNAhWLCMAKHfRbB5MQFggvMAM&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.themarysue.com%2Fbbc-doctor-who-racism%2F&usg=AFQjCNFojQaMGgi4BmqXZax1riPHI58Osw&sig2=X1ZrBcZrIEDWmsitYnHk-Q&bvm=bv.126130881,d.ZGg

Want further proof? Christel Dee a notorious SJW fan became right in there with the production team during the Capaldi era, as did Alyssa Franke, a blogger by the name of Whovian Feminism.

Whovian Feminism interviewed Rachel Talalay and was promoted by her several times. Whovian Feminism was notoriously arrogant and insulting towards anyone who didn't want a female Doctor Who.

See this lovely quote from her

“Supposedly well-meaning observers always like to come in and say that hardcore fans simply won’t accept a woman portraying the Doctor. This attitude does both the show and our fandom a disservice. While there is always a smattering of assholes to prove this type of attitude does exist, they aren’t even close to a majority. And even if it were true, we should not let the direction of the show be dictated by the worst of its fans. If a misogynistic jerk who disparagingly refers to a woman Doctor as “The Nurse” says he’ll quit watching the show, he’s exactly the type of fan we should be proud to piss off. I promise, plenty of new fans (especially ones with disposable income!) are waiting in the wings to take his place.”

We don't want riff raff watching DW.

On top of that they made Claudia Boleyn a member of DW magazines time team. That would be Claudia who smeared Moffat as promoting sexual assault in his scripts because of a bit where Matt Smith kissed Jenny.

With all of this in mind why is it so unreasonable to assume that Moffat and the BBC were pandering to these people to keep in with them and avoid another backlash? Mary Whitehouse attacked the show in similarly ridiculous ways, claiming it was promoting violence etc, and the BBC caved to her. They fired Hinchcliff, they forced Mc Coy's first season to be sillier etc.

It's exactly the same thing now. We just have left wing fanatics instead of a right wing one.

Moffat more or less admitted to pandering to these people, saying in interviews "I have to do better." The anti men remarks, the sex change of the Master to make way for a female Doctor, the cringey attempts at right on politics like Capaldi's anti Trump remarks, making Clara the most important person (the SJ Ws always complained that the companion should be the hero, though only when the companion is a woman.) It's obvious to anyone.

It also did hurt the shows viewers. They tanked in the Capaldi era. It consistently got the lowest viewers in the shows 50 year history, and there were dozens of videos done ripping into the show for being too woke.

See here.

http://www.doctorwhonews.net/2017/06/the-eaters-of-light-overnight-viewing.html

https://youtu.be/T3dU2RmLX6c

Yet all of that gets overlooked as just being my opinion? There's demonstrable proof of it pandering, failing and a backlash, but the opinion of someone who only started watching the show is more important.

This has got nothing to do with being anti women before you trot out that tired old argument. I have no problem with female leads and entertainers. In fact I have written extensively on female led series and female singers. This is about political fanatics slandering and bullying people, and forcing the show to focus more on their agenda. We all rightfully called it out when it was right wing fanatics like Mary Whitehouse, but when it's left wing fanatics suddenly everyone is as silent as a ghost? It's cowardice as far as I'm concerned.

PS my post wasn't actually as harsh as it could have been far from being a rant. I just put that Jodie's Doctor was polarizing.

If I were being truthful, I would have put the actual facts about the reception to Jodie's Doctor which are the following.

"In the UK, The Timeless Children had the Lowest rated series finale, which was the lowest rated episode since 2005, even after consolidation.

The Worst AI figures since 2005, with both Series 11 & 12 ranging in the low 80's with 5 episodes in the 70's.

Doctor Who's ratings are even worse in the US than they are in the UK with only 0.79 million watching at the start of series 12 falling to a god awful 0.374 Million by The time the timeless children rolled around. And of those viewers, the key demographic of 18/49 viewers has dropped to 0.12.

DVD/Bluray sales for series 12 in the toilet. Amazon had to slash them to half price BEFORE they even went on sale because pre-orders were so bad.

Companies that sell Doctor Who merch have gone out of business because nobody is buying them. For example the company that made the replica 12th Doctor's crombie coat to great acclaim had to fold when nobody bought the 13th Doctor's jacket.

Comicon's live drwho stream last week with the Time Lord Victorious panel had less than 360 people watching at it's peak, and had to turn off likes and comments.

If your series finale that you have been building up to for 9 weeks only gets 3.78 million Overnights against no competition on the main terrestrial channels, and can only struggle to 4.69 million when the BBC have done their figure fiddling, when Shows like Countryfile (4.44 million viewers Overnight), The Antiques Roadshow (4.41 million Overnight) & Even the BBC News (4.38 million) beat what was once a flagship show it's time to call it a day."

That is the actual truth of the matter, but because it doesn't fit in with some people's agenda here ironically it gets edited and I get told I have an agenda?

Meanwhile the bias against Classic Who is sickening. You have it that it's universally accepted that 80s Who is despised and was a failure by pandering to the base, despite that not being as agreed upon. 80s Who had a lot of outside factors against it. Namely its budget being slashed, it being shown opposite Coronation Street, no promotion, prices of stories being raised abroad to the point where no one could buy them.

2/ The reason I was banned in the first place was for making FACTUAL remarks about the Master.

You see Moffat rewrote the Master into being in love with the Doctor with that ghastly abomination, Missy.

I simply wrote in the article about the Master, the actual truth about the characters history. I wrote in that the Master and the Doctor were originally supposed to be brothers and this was going to be revealed in Delgado's finale story, that had to be scrapped after his tragic death. You can find this on the DVD of Planet of the Spiders. Jon Pertwee says as much in an interview that it's what he and Delgado always thought, as does Barry Letts the shows producer and co-creator of the Master. (Barry says as much on the Frontier in Space DVD tribute to Delgado too. It's well documented not just an opinion.)

The brothers idea was later resurrected towards the end of Classic Who. JNT the producer of the 80s was told about the idea by Barry Letts, and always treated it as Word of God.(He came close to revealing it in the story Planet of Fire, but chose to leave their history mysterious. You can see this on the Planet of Fire DVD)

With this in mind, it's obvious that there was no romantic relationship or UST between the Master and the Doctor. (Unless you think that the makers wanted the Doctor to shag his brother or a Zombie in the Baker time?)

The whole foe yay (god do I hate that term) was introduced entirely in the Davies era of the revival, but even then it was just a subtext, Missy was the first to make it a thing, and a lot of people hated it, as not only is it unfaithful, but it is inappropriate. Why would the Doctor want to be friends with, never mind in love with the Master? He is a genocidal maniac who has slaughtered loved ones of the Doctors friends. Does Nyssa not matter to the Doctor for instance. It undermines the Doctors morality.

In the Classic, true Doctor Who series, their friendship is mentioned in a grand total of ONE story. The Sea Devils. There the Doctor expresses regret over how his old friend from years ago ended up. That's it. Now and again they express a respect for one another like Holmes and Moriarty and enjoy sparring, and the Master in the early days is willing to form an alliance with the Doctor if need be, but he isn't in love with him. It's only mentioned in ONE other story, The Five Doctors that they even knew each other prior to their feud, and there if anything they do down their friendship, as the first Doctor doesn't recognise the Master (time lords can always recognise one another remember and this story didn't forget that as Jon Pertwee who has been fighting the Master knows him on sight. Added to that the Master simply says they were at the Academy together, not that they're soul mates.) This story was also written by the Masters other co-creator, Terrance Dicks.

Many of us preferred the Master as a Moriarty figure, which he was for the majority of the shows run.

Take a look at this quote from Capaldi from the modern series to see how much the Doctor has been undermined.

DOCTOR: She got us home from Mars.

BILL: She's a murderer.

DOCTOR: Enjoying your bacon sandwich?

BILL: Why?

DOCTOR: Because it had a mummy and a daddy. Go tell a pig about your moral high ground.

Now compare it to the Doctors morality and attitude towards the Master from Classic Who.

LEADER: It's survival, Doctor. Just as these primitives kill lesser species to protect themselves, so I kill them.

DOCTOR: That's hardly an argument.

LEADER: It's not supposed to be an argument. It's a statement!

JO: But I don't see why you're so upset. If you give him back the circuit and he hands over the missile

DOCTOR: You just don't understand, do you, Jo? Once he gets that circuit back he's free to roam through time and space. We'd never catch him.

JO: Then you'll just have to give in. The Master's got the missile and all we've got is this wretched machine.

DOCTOR: Jo, will you stop stating the obvious. What did you say?

JO: I said all we've got is this machine.

DOCTOR: Well, that's it. That's the answer. We've got the machine and we've got our friend, Barnham.

JO: I don't understand.

DOCTOR: With a little help from you, old chap, we can destroy this machine and the Master at the same time.

ENGIN: It's we who should thank you, Doctor, for destroying the Master.

DOCTOR: Well, I didn't actually see him fall, you know. I was quite busy.

ENGIN: Oh, but if by some miracle he survived the fall into that chasm, he was dying anyway.

DOCTOR: There was a good deal of power coming out of that monolith, and the Sash would have helped him to convert it.

SPANDRELL: Are you suggesting he survived?

DOCTOR: No, no, I hope not, Spandrell. And there's no one in all the galaxies I'd say that about. The quintessence of evil. Goodbye, Spandrell.

NYSSA: It's gone. Gone forever.

ADRIC: And the Master?

DOCTOR: Let's hope so.

What's that they say, you either die as a hero, or live long enough to see yourself as a villain?

For simply putting in the FACTS that the Doctor and the Master were originally meant to be brothers, that their friendship wasn't a big deal in the original series, that the revival changed their relationship, in a non opinionated way, I was banned by Fighteer.

When I pointed out that these were facts on the banned discussion board, first Fighteer told me I was editing with an agenda and then when I backed them up by saying you can find interviews with Jon Pertwee and Barry Letts backing up what I wrote, Fighteer banned me for good. No discussion, no taking on board what I said. Just a ban for daring to disagree with him.

Far from banning me again, he should have got a caution for abusing his mod powers and what I said should have been taken into consideration.

Simply put a lot of cultish Moffat fans and SJ Ws want to rewrite the history of the Master to make him fit in with that abomination Missy. I meanwhile just wrote about the history of the character in a factual way and was smeared as a trouble maker, and editing with an agenda. Hilarious that I'm the one with an agenda, when what I wrote is backed up by the creators of the character!

Either you should take what I said onboard, or do away with your YMMV section and admit it's all just opinion based here. That's all I'm going to say on this matter. It's not a hill I'm prepared to die on, but at the same time I think it needs said as it's annoying the way the history of something can be rewritten to appease bullies.

Edited by coldguy
8th Aug, 2020 02:19:57 AM

If I had a nickel for every "Fighteer bad" rant on this site...

8th Aug, 2020 02:56:10 AM

Rally Bot 2, well maybe there is something in these rants then? Maybe he is unfairly banning people? I'm not going to "wage war" or anything against him LOL or demand that he get banned or even stripped of his mod powers (not that I'd have the power anyway) but I don't think he should be allowed to just ban people for stating FACTS which is all I got banned for.

Seriously go watch the Planet of the Spiders DVD. It's all there what I said about the Master. Not my opinion, facts.

Like I said I'm not going to edit this page or any other DW related one given what's happened before. I only hope if I choose to edit another page on another subject, I can put in a fact without it being controversial. I probably will as DW fandom is notorious at this stage. I do feel bad about saying TV Tropes in general can't be trusted on another site as that's not fair to tar the whole site because of one section.

Still I think it is important to let it be known what has ruined the current DW on as many sites as possible. All of this trying to blame "toxic fandom" like Bowlestrek and Nerdrotic from some fans is cowardice in my opinion, and will solve nothing for DW's future. Added to that I dislike seeing characters histories be rewritten on sites that many people use, that's the only reason I went to bat for this one, but I know when to quit.

(Incidentally I don't even hate the SJW fans I rally against. Claudia Boleyn I find to be a nice person overall, but I think that the influence of these fans as a whole should be known. I only used them as the best examples, but obviously I don't think it was just a handful of people.

Edited by coldguy
8th Aug, 2020 03:08:04 AM

Coldguy , it doesn't matter what "facts" you are bringing. I believe that if you ban evade to post then what ever you post while banevading is automatically removed. And yes , if you create a new id to post again without mod authorization then you are ban evading. That is not a debate or technicality .

Edited by Tuvok
8th Aug, 2020 03:13:47 AM

>too woke

Mm-hmm. You're definitely just saying facts, though.

I'm gonna suggest that this query has stopped being useful by now.

8th Aug, 2020 03:30:12 AM

wingedcatgirl you don't like a phrase I used for practicality, so you are going to discount all of the links, articles, and evidence I used to back up what I was saying?

Tuvok again I only ban evaded because I was banned without any kind of proper discussion, decision, it was literally just "I don't like you and I don't like facts challenging my narrative."

I tried to message the mods in a fair way several times, but they didn't even do me the courtesy of responding saying they weren't going to do anything about it. It was stupid of me to just try and put it in again, but that was only because I expected people would be willing to discuss it if they had a problem with it.

Also you put quotation marks around "facts" tell me what is not factual about this statement.

The Master in classic who was intended to be the Doctors brother. Roger Delgado himself came up with the idea, told it to Jon Pertwee and Barry Letts who loved it, and they were going to reveal it in his last story, that sadly wasn't made because Roger was killed in a car accident.

Barry Letts oversaw JNT's first season as producer, helped reintroduce the Master, and filled JNT in on the characters backstory, including the brothers idea that JNT would hint at, and come close to revealing in Planet of Fire.

What is not factual about those statements. If you doubt me, watch the special features on Planet of Spiders, Frontier in Space and Planet of Fire and you'll see everything I said is backed up in interviews with Jon Pertwee, Peter Davison, Barry Letts.

Yet you put "facts" as though this is just my opinion. It's demonstably true.

Also what about the smears I posted links to about Moffat? The responses from the BBC, the links to failing viewers?

8th Aug, 2020 04:02:39 AM

Your arguing for something there is no consensus for , as well as arguing as if you have the ability to change it. You ban evaded, your justification for it does not change it. Others have done so before and have had their edits reverted due to policy. As have yours. That's not going to change. As Winged Catgirl has pointed out this query has served its purpose.

8th Aug, 2020 04:06:29 AM

You know, coldguy, I think you lost most of us and whatever moral high ground you think you have with the "Well technically I am [a ban evader]" and that absurd Wall of Text you use to justify your opinions.

Rules are rules, mate.

8th Aug, 2020 04:27:21 AM

Ah that old argument Round Robin of "you used a phrase I don't like, and your post was too long, so I'm not going to actually answer the links you posted."

In short clearly none of you have a counter argument for anything I posted. You have to focus on pedantic issues. Not one of you can answer the point of everything I wrote is backed up by evidence, more so than the other things in this article that are just opinion.

And Tuvok, what consensus does there need to be? What I wrote about the Master that got me banned in the first place, is something that the CREATORS of the character said. It's something that the actors playing the character said, but posting that is enough to get me banned. What is this a geek version of Stalinist Russia? Are we going to airbrush the previous versions of the character Trotsky like out of history, or rewrite them to fit our modern agenda?

Thank you for proving my point about the bias of this site in regards to DW.

Edited by coldguy
8th Aug, 2020 04:31:02 AM

Your not looking for a debate, your looking for an argument. Also you have no right to request debate as you ban evaded, as stated prior you have no moral high ground as you chose to ban evade. Your reasoning only make sense to you. Requesting a Mod Lock. This query has been settled and your constant input serves no purpose because you cannot effect change only have a one sided argument with yourself to prove a point to yourself alone.

Edited by Tuvok
8th Aug, 2020 04:34:00 AM

ATT is like, second on the list of places to take a question for the mods (right after "holler the relevant post/page"), so normally we don't need to request a lock on a query that's spiraled out of control.

Given the time, I assume they're just asleep.

But just in case, I reported the ban-evader's tropers page with a link to here about how they're ban-evading.

Edited by wingedcatgirl
8th Aug, 2020 04:35:01 AM

Copy that.

Edited by Tuvok
8th Aug, 2020 04:38:37 AM

Guys stop arguing with the ban evader. Just let him get rebanned and move on

8th Aug, 2020 04:45:16 AM

If you wanted a debate, you could've had one at Edit Banned. By ban evading, you forfieted that right.

Btw. Even if you're spitting facts, you're also posting massive walls of text, using biased or heavy language in and out of the example, and doing indentation wrong.

Fighteer MOD
8th Aug, 2020 05:30:10 AM

Well, that's fun. Bye, ban evader. By the way, I feed on your hatred. It makes me more powerful.

Edited by Fighteer
8th Aug, 2020 06:23:59 AM

Btw he left a large Wall of Text on the discussion page. Is it possible for a mod to remove it.

8th Aug, 2020 07:38:40 AM

...did he actually expect anybody to read any of that? The one in this thread is honestly one of the largest walls of text I've ever seen.

I mean, I know trying to psychoanalyze ban evaders is a waste of time, but still.

8th Aug, 2020 11:14:03 AM

Yeah, nobody needs to read that. I'll close this.

Top

How well does it match the trope?

Example of:

/

Media sources:

/

Report