During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Constantine for sure. A genocidal maniac and possibly rapist, along with trying to murder his wife just because he was tired of her. Easy keeper.
to Constantine, Duncan and Dracula
I have an idea for another candidate for Everquest, but he's from the Tabletop Game, which I'm not sure is canon (as it contradicts things that happen in the video game.) Is he still eligible?
to Dracula and Ducan.
Also, today be my 25th birthday!
Yes to Duncan and Matthews and a current entry I'd like to dispute:
- Kung Fu Hustle: Brother Sum is the leader of the Axe Gang, which controls most of Shanghai with an iron fist. Sum makes his debut hacking a rival gang leader to death, then gunning down his wife after telling her she would be spared. When a martial artist injures a member of his gang, Brother Sum tries to set a woman and child on fire to get him to reveal himself. His underlings fare little better, as Sum kills them with no hesitation if they irritate or fail him. Upon being humiliated by the Pig Sty Alley residents, Brother Sum hires a pair of assassins to murder the local martial artists, and later breaks into an asylum and releases the Beast so that he will kill the Landlady and Landlord.
Having just watched it... I've got some issues here:
- Firstly, I see back when he was brought up it was mentioned he was played "dead straight" with just a funny death scene. This is objectively incorrect. The bit about hiring the pair of assassins to kill the martial artists? Throughout the fight he's sitting next to his Number Two in a car and comically has to keep telling him to move so he can see... again and again and again. After his assassins are beaten the Landlord and Landlady break into his car, where he gets hilariously intimidated into saying he'll never come back and even barks at a minion checking if he's okay to go away because the Landlord and Landlady were trying to sleep. I see we were honest about his death scene but for the record, what happens is the Beast punches him so hard his head spins around about a dozen times before his neck snaps.
- Otherwise... heinousness, the guy seems to be the leader of a gang with hundreds of members and what does he do: he kills a rival gangster at the start, about three or four of his underlings (note, as these guys had just roughed up the cops for stepping to them, Asshole Victim is in effect). Killing the wife is nasty and threatening to burn the woman and child to death are as well... but that's about it beyond standard villainy. Other than that he just goes after the three martial artists in Pig Sty Alley and later the Landlord and Landlady. I just watched it: he never tries to do anything like exterminate the slums, he's literally just going after a handful of people he's got beef with. I guess he throws axes at the protagonist and his brother while they're chained up but that's just kind of a dickish way to "Try to kill the hero."
He's kinda made out like he'd be a Vile Villain, Saccharine Show case but after his first few scenes becomes pretty close to a complete joke and other than a few flairs, really doesn't stand out for what he could do with his resources. I'm saying chop.
Thoughts?
Discussed with you, I'm saying cut Brother Sum.
Oh also? While he's driving away, he accidentally gets his hair set on fire between trying to light a cigar and doused in alcohol, forgot about that.
Goku Black
Cut the brother and happy birthday shado
Anymore votes on Vlad the bad ?
The Draftsman of Doom
Thanks for all the feedback. Here's the write-up I made for Hakon.
- Hakon is the ruthless leader of a group of viking raiders and the instigator of the wyvern massacre. In his debut, he invades Castle Wyvern with the intent of looting it and selling off its residents as slaves. After a humiliating defeat, Hakon vows vengeance against the gargoyles, and with aid from the Captain of the Guard, successfully takes over the castle. However, not content with plundering the castle, Hakon slaughters most of the petrified wyvern clan; threatening to kill the Captain if he gets in his way. When cornered by Goliath, he attempts to blame the Captain, before they both fall to their deaths. Blaming Goliath for his demise, his soul persisted within Castle Wyvern through the Power Of Hate, and he, along with the Captain, torment Goliath with visions of the wyvern massacre. Luring him deep into the castle, he gleefully commences a ritual that would revive him and have Goliath bound to the castle in his place. When the Captain turns on him and thwarts his plan, he stubbornly hangs onto his hate; binding his soul to an axe and teaming up with Wolf to kill Goliath and Hudson. A savage motivated by petty vengeance and senseless hatred, Hakon set the standard for how truly depraved the show's villains could get.
Edited by Sawkman on Aug 29th 2020 at 10:14:06 AM
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Cut Brother Sum.
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Abstain on Sum. He is heinous enough imo.
Bad Boss, attempting to set a woman and child on fire, needlessly killing someone's wife, etc. Sounds pretty bad to me for an action-comedy.
Now if he's played as a joke though....
Who is he
- Miragul, from the 1999 game Everquest and its related Tabletop Game.
What has he done
- He was originally an Erudite spellcaster, who wanted to study the art of Necromancy, which is considered inherently evil, and was thus banned by the mostly good-aligned Erudites. He and his followers decided to learn it anyway (mainly from the dark-elves), which resulted in a civil war between his followers and the rest of the Erudites. While he eventually tired of the war and left, it's still going on during the game. Miragul then went to Everfrost Peaks and created an elaborate underground lair he dubbed Miragul's Menagerie. When he first arrived, the local Barbarians just ignored him, until he started creating an Unrealistic Black Hole type thing that was going to turn everyone in the region into his undead slaves. The Barbarian Thalger managed to destroy it with the Spear of Fate, but Miragul survived and eventually became a lich. The adventure starts with him creating another blight monster. Once the P Cs destroy it, they have to brave his Menagerie to stop him. Inside they find numerous horrors, such as several people who are turned to stone but still conscious. While the P Cs can free them, all but one are completely insane, and even the sane one (a good-aligned halfling) suffers a crippling claustrophobia and other mental illness. There's also a monk who has been trapped for ages and can only "escape" by entering a phylactery nearby, a tribe of undead petrified treants who are now evil, as well as "The Keening Woman" (a tormented ghost who came to rescue her husband but died and became undead.) Perhaps worst of all, he is apparently working with Terris-Thule to become a god.
Mitigating Factors
- None, even before he became a necromancer he was a power hungry asshole
Heinousness?
- He's almost as bad as Innoruuk and Mata Muram, and is probably the most evil necromancer ever to live on Norrath (considering necromancers are Always Chaotic Evil. that's saying a lot.)
Verdict
- yep
Edited by Bootlebat on Aug 29th 2020 at 7:20:56 AM
Shin Megami Tensei IV
King Constantine
Regarding Duncan, I am...curious. Can you expand in how far the other villains go? I think he keeps given his very low resources (he is a just a young adult that used his job equipment to commit hate crimes) but I want to be sure what else is on that show
Watch me destroying my country
Bro he's got at least hundreds of henchmen... how low does the heinous standard suddenly dip because he's in a comedy film. We tend not to have comedy villains because they tend not to be heinous enough. From the notes about the Axe Gangs killing they mostly seem to go after rivals gangs anyways, they're not gunning down innocents left, right and centre.
The Draftsman of Doom
Abstain on Miragul.
Come on, Bootle, throw me some yarn here. How are Miragul's actions worse, or at least, different from The actions of other characters? What does the candidate do differently.
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
Ok, then. What do the other characters do differently.
Edit: Based on your edit, I understand that his crimes are unique for the setting. Yes there. However, you could have outlined that in the heinousness section specifically. It does help to list the actions of the other villains.
I am still interested to know whether they have any actions which stand out.
Edited by SkyCat32 on Sep 13th 2020 at 7:56:42 AM
Feels good, don't it?
Well, I listed a bunch of atrocities he committed. He's also given a lot more backstory than most of the villains in the game. And while all necromancers create undead, he's the only one who tried to turn an entire region (with thousands of inhabitants) into his undead slaves.
Edited by Bootlebat on Aug 29th 2020 at 7:28:35 AM
Well, the game has a ton of Big Bads due to all the expansions, but he still seems among the cruelest and most twisted (in particular his habit of subjecting people to And I Must Scream situations.) Most villains just kill people, some enslave people, but I still don't think that's as bad as becoming an undead or being trapped as a statue for centuries.
Edited by Bootlebat on Aug 29th 2020 at 7:32:43 AM
Well I haven't seen the whole film so I am abstaining right now but Sum sort of my own candidate Driscoll. Has lots of minions and not a too high body count but has some deeds that are personally despicable.
to Constantine, Duncan, and Dracula
Cut Brother Sum
Abstain on Mugul since his EP is quite bare-bone and seriously bootlebat you need to put more information when you EP candidates (such as going into detail in all the atrocities they've done, if they have excuses and redeeming qualities, how do they stand out in heinousness compared to other villains etc. )
Alright I’ve got another candidate to discuss from an anime I just finished watching. The anime in question is called 91 Days so lets talk about it.
What’s The Work?
91 Days is an anime series taking place during the Prohibition Era in the town of Lawless Chicago. The story revolves around Avilio Bruno, real name Angelo Lagusa as he takes vengeance on the Vanetti family who killed his family when he was a child. Among the dastardly fellows that Avilio has encountered none were as sadistic nor deplorable as this guy, Fango
Who Is He? What Has He Done?
Fango is a brutal and psychotic enforcer of the Orco crime family who makes his first appearance by beating Tigre near death demanding to know about booze Corteo makes. Fango then enters Corteo’s bar by force holding everyone there hostage, and orders his right-hand man, Serpentine, to slit Corteo’s throat where Avilio saves Corteo and attacks Fango, to which Fango causes shoot-out at the bar hoping to kill as many people as he can before escaping.
Fango would then have Serpentine kidnap Arturo Tronco, a teenager who just happened to be at the bar, and slash his throat wide open killing Tronco and leading to the Vanetti family to put a hit out on Fango to avenge Arturo’s death. Avilio catches Fango having sex with a prostitute, to which Fango would use her as a human shield against Avilio, before shooting right through Avilio to try killing him before making his escape abandoning Serpentine to get killed by Vanno.
Fango would then approach Don Orco and his associates and demands that they declare war on the Vanetti’s for trying to kill them, which Orco declines saying that he doesn’t want unnecessary bloodshed just to please Fango. Fango responds by stabbing a fork through a hand of one of Orco’s associates before leaving.
Fango would then subdue Tigre and would demand to know where Avilio and Nero are by beat him up again, trying to jam a hot cigarette through Tigre’s eye. When Fango learns where they are and that they might be holding “Serpentine” hostage he goes to where they are, only to be a set up orchestrated by Avilio and Nero where they try to kill them.
Fango survives them once more, and reveals that he’s extremely happy that this occurs, because by having confirmed evidence that they really did kill a member of the Orco crime syndicate he would convince Don Orco to declare war on the Vanetti’s and give Fango an excuse to kill more people to suffice his bloodlust.
Fango would also reveal that he has ambitions to overthrow Don Orco to take his crime syndicate for himself to which Fango forms an Enemy Mine with Avilio and Nero to do that, having them capture Orco and bring him to Fango. Fango would then kill Orco and butchers his body before tricking Orco’s men into eating Orco by serving Orco as Lasagna to them. Taking over Orco’s crime syndicate, Fango would make the crime family much more violent killing countless people ranging from people in rival crime family’s, such as the Galassia family, to completely innocent people.
When Federal Bureau of Prohibition agent Delphy tries to put an end to Fango’s crimes as well as the mob war engulfing Lawless, Fango with the help of Nero would plant a car bomb in Murphy’s car nearly killing Murphy’s wife and daughter and forcing Murphy give up. Fango would also force Corteo to make his booze for him by beating him up and threatening to sell him to the Vanetti’s for conspiring with Avillio to overthrow them and would continue to abuse Corteo for his own amusement.
However when Prohibition agent Scusa has Corteo’s recipe and willing to sell it to Fango at a high price, Fango brutally murders Scusa with his golf club and tells Corteo that he is of no use to him and Fango had already sold Corteo out to the Vanetti’s for them to kill Corteo, while revealing to betray the Vanetti himself, causing Corteo to snap and kill Fango.
Freudian Excuse? Redeeming Qualities?'
All that’s known about Fango is that he is a Psycho for Hire who wants to overthrow Don Orco and take over his organization so that he can commit more violence, suffering and death for his own amusement. That is it and it is certainly not a justifiable nor sympathetic excuse at all
Fango also lacks any redeeming qualities showing no concern for his own men, even making an inappropriate joke when one of them dies, is willing to work with Avilio and Nero but only so that he could use them to overthrow Orco and tries to betray them once they serve their purpose to Fango and is completely untrustworthy only loyal to himself.
Heinousness
91 Days is a pretty dark anime with the Vanetti’s killing Avilio’s entire family when he was a child including his younger brother and Avilio orchestrating a gang war that engulfs Lawless so that he can wipe out the Vanetti’s to avenge his family death. However all the Vanetti’s have redeeming qualities, while Avilio does have a sympathetic reason to after them so they don’t count. Fango on the other hand lacks any sympathize reasons and redeeming qualities while proving himself to be far more sadistic in his crime making him stand out in terms of heinousness.
Fango’s atrocities range from cruelly beating up and torturing numerous people near death, has a teenage boy killed, uses a prostitute as a Human Shield before shooting right through her, stabs someone’s hand with a fork, tricks a group of people into eating their own boss, tries to kill an innocent family which they were barely lucky that they weren’t in the car when it blew up uses a golf club to beat up Scusa to death and sells off Corteo to the Venetti’s resulting in Corteo getting tortured and Avillio being forced to kill him.
Final Verdict?
I will leave it to you guys to decide
I believe user is referring to Driscoll from that Mark Wahlberg movie, Spenser Confidential
Edited by G-Editor on Aug 30th 2020 at 9:42:58 AM
Yes to Fango. User who's Driscoll? Lots of resources and minimal crimes is concerning to me.
Goosebumps needs a new image.
Showtime!
