During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Benedict
Mosi, Meles and Benedict.
So I got someone new to talk about, from a fanfic of My Babysitter's a Vampire.
For those who don't know or remember, it was a show that used to air on Teletoon and the Disney Channel; it focuses on the adventures to teenagers Ethan Morgan, Benny Weir, and their vampire friends Sarah, Erica, and Rory as they fight a number of supernatural threats in their fictional Ontario town of Whitechapel; Ethan and Benny are also supernatural in that Ethan is a Seer and Benny is a Spellmaster. The show was canceled in its second season, and in its wake the fanfiction community took to writing continuation fics. One such writer, JDWrites101, wrote a series of Continuation Fics that are connected by the same mutliverse. They stayed otherwise true to the show's spirit, while taking their stories to a more dark and dramatic route. A recurring OC in these stories is Eric Weir, Benny and Erica's son, which is a long story in on itself.
One of their biggest fics is The Spellmaster's Mother; the mysterious Everlasting Circus roles into town, causing Ethan to remember a childhood trauma of his involving the circus. With the presence of supernatural beings call the Ringmasters revealing themselves, Ethan and the gang end up facing one of their biggest threats and one of their most personal antagonists; Eris T. Weelec, the apparent leader of the circus, who is revealed to be Benny's thought dead mother Celeste Weir.
The candidates in question are her dark masters, dubbed The Ringmasters. They are also antagonists in the sequel Pandora's Box, so the EP is a little longer than I wanted it to be.
Who are they ? What do they do ?
The Ringmasters, as they are called are three mysterious, tall faceless beings that run the Everlasting Circus from behind the scenes. They are the ones behind Celeste Weir faking her death, and wherever the circus rolls, mass brainwashing and Emotion Eating follows; with them amassing a vast army of nine hundred consisting of masked performers and possessed mannequin. Their goal is to "purify" (in the Nazi sense of the term) the world of supernatural beings and will stop as nothing to achieve their goals; they also have the ability to inflict extreme pain on whomever they touch, and a weakness from enchanted moonstones. At first they come off as standard, if unnerving antagonists; kidnapping Erica and Rory from their school, prompting Ethan, Sarah and Benny to rescue them; they play mind games with the trio; attack Ethan, Sarah and Ethan's kid sister Jane at their house. So they start off as generic...that is before we find out their backstory, goal, and methods.
Later in the story, Jesse (the canon shows previous Big Bad) approaches the Whitechapel Gang as Benny's house, to reveal the origins of the Ringmasters.Once upon a time they were a trio of Spellmasters that formed a religious order bent on the total purification of the world. Two hundred and ninety nine years ago, they arrive in Whitechapel as it was still being built, back when it was named Black Church. The purpose of the city was to create a safe haven for the supernatural and Ringmasters had a hand in the cities creation, even leaving a positive impression of its people. Shortly afterwards, people began to disappear, too many to escape the Vampire Council's notice. After investigating theses disappearances, it is discovered the Ringmasters have been kidnapping Whitechapel's citizens, young and old, killing and preforming torturous, Mengele type experiments on them. With children getting the worst of it. These were for trying to remove the "supernatural" disease from anyone "impure" and to create dark magic.
With the combined effort of The Vampire Council, and Horace "Jesse" Black's followers, the Ringmasters were overthrown. There were plans to execute them, but deemed death too kind. It turned out the Ringmaster themselves came up with their fitting punishment; three Spellmaster's of the Weir family from different generations, would combine their magic with the blood of sacrificed children and curse their Ringmasters souls for eternity. Their souls were turned into spectral energy and forced to watch as the supernatural world they so hated developed from beyond the veil. Over the centuries, the Ringmaster searched for new bodies, but couldn't possess those who already had a mind, and makeshift bodies keep rotting away. In the meantime, they left created objects infused with their dark magic day someone would use them to resume where they had left off; these being the Cubile Animus and Lucifractor from the show.
In the modern era, years before the story, the truth about the Ringmasters has long since been buried by the Vampire Council. One day, a curious Spellmaster, Celeste Weir discovered the Old Whitechapel Library, and unwittingly roused their attention, with their curse weakening. They three spirits spent some time mentally tormenting Celeste, driving her to madness. Despite her efforts to stop them, they intimidated her into following them by threatening her family. To pull an Memory Gambit Celeste faked her death and wiped her memories to adopt the alias Eris T. Weelec; although the Ringmasters slowly resorted her memories and power to warp her into their puppet. They created the Everlasting Circus as a front to travel the world The Ringmasters also had a backup plan and with the creation of Benny and Erica's son Eric (again, long story) so they could have a third Weir to undo their curse (in the event Benny's grandmother died). They took Eric and had Celeste/Eris raise him. On top of that they stripped Eric of his ability to talk and regularly tortures the boy to drain his magic, leaving his body covered in scars. Eventually, Jesse saved/kidnapped Eric to put a speed bump in their plans.
After another confrontation and learning their weaknesses, the Whitechapel gang plan battle strategies against the Ringmasters' army. Celeste in the meantime, has Jesse and the Vampire Council brainwashed to capture Sarah, and sets their army loose on the town. With Ethan playing The Chessmaster, he and his friends manage to counteract their magic and turn the tides against their army. Gathering a massive vampire army of their own, the protagonists join a massive battle at the circus while the Ringmaster's are fully resurrected. In the fight Celeste is freed from their influence, and the Ringmaster's declare her usefulness has worn out and try to kill her. In the ensuing fight, one of the Ringmaster's mortally wounds Jesse, but not before being bitten, and in turn executed by his brothers as he starts to transform. It turns out the Ringmaster's had a contingency plan in the event their plans fails; they converted Eric into a magical bomb that is set to wipe out Whitechapel. A redeemed Celeste uses the last of her power to pull Eric, herself and the other two Ringmaster's into the abyss, as the circus is wiped out. However the Ringmaster's aren't completely destroyed, with the third one being trapped within Ethan's subconscious to keep them sealed. This leaves Ethan unable to touch anyone without hurting them, and as the sequel shows, gives him Demonic Possession nightmares.
The sequel Pandora's Box takes place six months later with Ethan seeking the titular box in Greece to find a way to rid himself of the Ringmaster's for good. Ethan ends up trapped by the Sister's of Fate in a Labryinth, along with Icarus (whose revealed to really be Eric). In the meantime, the aftermath of the first stories battle has caused a disease to spread throughout the world killing vampires; the last Ringmaster (through Ethan) discreetly gives the vampire council tarrot-cards bound to their magic, and teaches their leader Anastasia spells to recreate and enchanted the powers of vampires. Due to Ethan nearly reaching Pandora's Box, Whitechapel is pulled into a pocket dimension within the Abyss, entrapping its citizens to forcibly be converted into vampires or die; unknown to Anastasia and the Sisters of Fate, they are playing into the Ringmaster's hands.
Towards the stories climax, the Ringermaster reveals himself and his true plans, appearing into Whitechapel through Ethan's body before resurrecting himself and the other two. The Ringmasters' new goal is to use the evil of Pandora's Box to wipe out all of reality and recreate it in their own image, since they cannot control humanity. With Anastasia's usefulness worn out, they burn her alive, and cast Ethan, the Sisters and Eric into the Darkness to leave forever. After learning their weakness - burning the tarrot cards - Ethan and Eric escape the Darkness and join the fight with the Ringmaster's and the monsters they set loose on the city. An empowered Ethan catches their tarrot-cards and sets loose and explosion of Dark Magic the destroys the cards and wipes the three Ringmaster's from existence.
In turn Whitechapel is restored and the horrors the Ringmasters' and Council are undone from history and memory, including the disease they created. Ethan was supposed to die in the explosion, but is rescued by Celeste's spirit (who has been lurking around throughout the story) who ends up absorbing the dark magic that was supposed to kill Ethan.
Redeeming Qualities or Freudian Excuse ?
None between the three.
They're brothers and work as a trio throughout the two stories, but we are never given any indication that they care about eachother as a family. They are Knight Templars when it comes to their philosophy and unhesitantley execute one of those own for being bitten by a vampire. They are never presented in a positive of sympathetic light, and their personalities throughout is to empathize their cruelty and arrogance towards others, complete with a total god-complex that becomes more pronounced in the sequel; that they see everyone as tools to use and dispose of; that anyone who gets in their way deserves to die. The stories never try to paint then as well intentioned aside from their idea of purging "sin" from the world and making the world to their liking.
It's essentially Nazi retoric of purging "undesirables" and replacing them with something superior. In the second story they go full Endgame!Thanos and forfeit any claims of good intentions in favour of wiping out and rebuilding the world were they are gods.
Heinous Standard
Clear it. The shows canon doesn't shy away from murder, mass murder, attempted genocide and omnicide, so that shouldn't be an issue. Although in the context of these fics, they may have exceeded it.
In these fics, the Ringmaster's have mass murder to their name; acts of genocide; mass Mind Rape; mass torture and experiments, especially if children that left even Jesse and the Vampire Council mortified. And finally there's their whole attempting to destroy reality bit in the sequel.
So, once again, they easily clear it.
Edited by Beast on Sep 3rd 2020 at 4:52:21 AM
"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
The Draftsman of Doom
Goku Black
asp
to Benedict and the Ringmasters.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Sure to the Ringmasters.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Showtime!
to Benedict and the Ringmasters
Benedict (I think he's in the BBC Radio adaptation of Knightfall as well), Mosi, Zootopia!Doctor, Ringmasters
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Yes to Benedict and the Ringmasters.
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Ringmasters.
to Dr. Meles, Benedict Asp and The Ringmasters (always disappointed that show never got a proper conclusion).
ACW: Yeah the very same. If your a fan of his films, I'd recommend this series, it has similar impressive action sequences.
Well Mosi is an easy keeper, I'll hopefully post my second candidate soon.
Benedict Asp and the Ringmasters
@Dr Unknown can you PM me? I tried to PM you, but for some reason I can't get it to send (the site just bricks whenever I try to send something to anyone) but not when someone else sends something to me. I just have something I would want to discuss.
to the Ringmasters
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Sure thing.
Internet Man
Hello all, I've been vaguely following this topic along with the MOI trope pages (I'm one of THOSE content creators, apparently). Had a thought come up with the cut of MOI's version of Ridley - under those same guidelines, would it not make sense for Dimentio to be cut from Man on the Internet's list of CMs as well?
From what I've been reading over, Ridley was cut due to not adding much new characterization to him, instead reflecting events from the manga/Metroid continuity. I think that, if that's the case, it's a valid argument to say that just because someone is a CM from another medium doesn't automatically qualify them as a CM in another.
Now obviously this might not come from an objective place, me being the guy who wrote the lyrics, but I'm not sure why Dimentio would qualify if Ridley does not. The writeups on the CM pages don't detail anything that differentiates MOI Dimentio from the original Super Paper Mario Dimentio, he doesn't particularly do anything all that different from in the game, and to me, it feels like Dimentio only qualifies because he was a CM in SPM, as opposed to Lavos and Marx, who as noted have different characterization than the games.
Maybe it's something I'm not seeing - it is, after all, a YMMV trope, and as the creator obviously my mileage probably varies a lot (and adding stuff to my own YMMV trope page would be... weird.) But it's bugged me for a while, and having Ridley removed finally got me thinking this was something I could bring up.
tl;dr I propose removing Dimentio as a CM from the Man on the Internet candidates, under the grounds that he doesn't do anything substantially different from canon Dimentio (who already qualifies).
Edited by ManontheInternet on Jun 29th 2020 at 1:21:20 PM
I make YouTube videos and sometimes people like them
Hey we actually don't allow for creators to weigh in on whether or not a candidate they created should be up or not, since it's a heavy bias which can sway people when we should strictly be looking at what can objectively be observed within the work itself.
Internet Man
Perfectly understandable. Thanks!
I make YouTube videos and sometimes people like them
Lizzid people!
Because we decided on if a villain in a song has a new perspective that taps into the psyche, that is valid. It's not like them singing about their crimes.
Hey MOTI, I have a question. Is Song!Ridley actually based on the manga's version of him, or do they just have similar bloodthirsty and sadistic personalities?
Yeah, being honest, I was highly skeptical about the claim the troper made that it's based on the manga counterpart considering how lesser known it is.
Edited by Awesomekid42 on Jun 29th 2020 at 3:40:42 PM
The wifi here sucks
We discussed Dimentio and decided that the song added enough changes to his psychology (making something of a Straw Nihilist) to keep him up.
I'm confused about that too.
Edited by papyru30 on Jun 29th 2020 at 1:46:19 PM
Hope your prepared for an unforgettable luncheon
Does it matter? I’m immensely uncomfortable when the version cut was almost indistinguishable from the manga one and now we’re trying to get the author to give information in the hopes we can salvage it.
Lizzid people!
Besides we don't use Word of God.
While the manga is lesser known, it's characterization of Ridley is not. Almost every fanwork that features Ridley follows this charcterization instead of the animalistic portrayal he has in the Metroid games, so at least that part of the manga is well-known and could've served as inspiration. Also, given that the song version of Ridley follows the same "destroying colonies" crime as the manga version of Ridley (which is something that the game version of Ridley rarely, if ever, does), it's unlikely that the song version of Ridley isn't based on the manga version.
Edited by DrUnknown on Jun 29th 2020 at 1:29:09 AM
There's a difference between Word of God about whether a character is meant to be a pure evil villain, and Word of God about more objective things. I'd say "which version is Song!Ridley based on?" is more objective than MOTI's opinion on whether he qualifies.
