During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to Grant
Take care Fried we’ll miss you
Edited by G-Editor on Jun 12th 2020 at 11:31:06 PM
Goku Black
walker
Based on the EP, to Walker. “Let’s kick some ice!”
Yes I went there.
The candidate Demon Duck offered me is coming soon by the way. I am a half hour into the movie.
Edited by futuremoviewriter on Jun 13th 2020 at 2:35:08 AM
Yhwach quote and Grant Walker. Shocking that a candidate like Walker was never discussed before.
Wild Child
Walker.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Yes to Walker. Dude kinda reminds me of a less Nazi-like Hugo Drax.
Sure to the quote as well.
Edited by ACW on Jun 13th 2020 at 5:42:23 AM
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
I'm usually incredibly wary about the idea of any other one-shots keeping from the DCAU (even some random villains like the Claw try shit like "gas all of London" or "blow up all of Metropolis" or so on), but Walker's goal being borderline Kill All Humans makes me more comfortable. Saying aye.
Goku Black
The standard is beautifully jacked. I think new batman adventures had like every second villain try to destroy Gotham. Lol.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Yes to Grant Walker.
Grant Walker
Okay, i just now EP another candidate from this work in MB thread, now i will discuss it here
What is the Work?
Epoch is a 5 issue comic mini-series created by Top Cow Productions and Heroes and Villains Entertainment in their co-imprint partnership agreement through which they publish original comic book series which serve as the source material for feature film, television, and game productions. The story follows Half Human Half Angel hybrid Jonah Wright, as he discovers his true nature and the existence of the supernatural in the world. Helped by his father Archangel Gabriel (who abandoned his Angel nature to become human and live with his human wife), they try to uncover the mistery behind the recent brutal murders that going on.
My candidate is one of the two Big Bads of the comic, more clearly the brute and "heavy lifter" among the two - the vile demon Damien.
Who is Damien?
A blue demon, who posesses genocidal hatred toward humanity, Damien eagerly join forces with angel Tobias and started to commit brutal murders of the members of the Supernatural Council (the Council, which represents all Supernatural Races of the planet, from angels and demons to vampires and gorgons, for the sotry of its origin look these 2 pages), and then he forced his former lover, head of the gorgons Mya, to lure Jonah Wright to the place, where the last murder was commited (by Tobias' orders) and then he slaughters the whole team of NYPD, which was with Jonah, before he mortally wounded him and then he gets chased by Archangel Michael, who managed to overpower him, only for Tobias to save him by killing Michael. When Jonah discovered the Council and Werewolf leader started a fight with Vampire leader, Damien was ordered by Lilith (Queen of the Demons) to stop them. As Jonah was started to be trained to become a champion for Angels in Epoch (a tournament, where the winner would choose the next leader of the Council, since Michael was leader before and he was killed), he observed as Damien sadistically killed or injured his opponents in the tournament (at the tournament the fighters fight until the opponent either dead or surrendered and Damien despite this at one point sadistically killed a vampire champion, despite him attempting to surrender). As Jonah and Gabriel investigated murders, Damien and Tobias observed them from the roof, with Damien being eager to kill them, only for Tobias to stop him by saying that they still has a role to play in his plan.
Later on, when Gabriel get too close to the truth, Damien forced his former lover Mya to lure him to a dark place (per planning with Tobias), where he brutally murdered her, while Tobias killed Gabriel. Finding his father's body, Jonah arrives at Damien's company and attacks him there, with Damien taunting him and openly declaring to appoint himself as leader of the Council (thus confirming that he intends to betray Lilith by not appointing her as leader) when he wins Epoch, which as stated would mean the end of humanity, due to Damien's genocidal hatred of them and desire to wage war on them. As Damien and Jonah meet at the last battle in Epoch, they fight with Damien intially winning and preparing to sadistically murder Jonah, only for him to assume his Archangel form and easily beat Damien. As Jonah tries to force Damien to say, who was his accomplice, Damien refuses out of spite and forces Jonah to kill him.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
None. Damien is not shown to be truly loyal to anyone other than himself, he openly says that he going to appoint himself as the leader of the Council instead of his Queen and he is not shown to care for his partner as anything other than means to an end, which is getting himself as the leader of the Council, so he could either subjicate humanity or wipe them out (since him becoming a leader openly stated would be The End of the World as We Know It and the end of days for humanity). While he declares that Supernatural beings are "dying slow death", this is not shown in comic in any way (in contrary, peaceful coexistence is shown to be the best way) and its more showcased that Damien means that Supernaturals becoming too afraid of humanity, since they hide from them. Damien's refusal to reveal the identity of his accomplice is also shown to be more out of spite, as he said that this will cause Jonah to never know the truth.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Damien and Tobias are the only actual villains of the comic (the rest have no bodycount of their own in the comic and while several members of the Council are pricks, they are not shown to be as monstrous as Damien) and Damien is the one, who does most of the "heavy lifting" and shown to be worse out of the two with his monstrous desires to cause the end of humanity. He is extremely sadistic, loving to kill his victims in more painful ways, like ripping off their heads or chest or burning them alive. Him forcing his former lover to be complicit in murders and the murdering her in sadistic way shown to be far more monstrous than the more cold and smarter actions of Tobias as his partner in crime.
Final Verdict?
What do you think?
Edited by VeryVileVillian on Jun 13th 2020 at 1:22:24 PM
Yes to Damien, Princes, Rushu and Walker.
Here is my Alexander write up:
- Star Trek (IDW): Star Trek: Discovery Succession: In this tale from the Mirror Universe, Emperor Alexander is the cousin of the previous Emperor Philippa Georgiou and the successor to the throne of the Terran Empire after she seemed to have died. Alexander quickly established as a bigoted psychopath, denouncing his cousin as a whore and a weakling, he plans to do something he claims his cousin was too weak to do, use a genetically engineered virus to cleanse the universe of all nonhuman life, starting with the Klingon homeworld Qo'noS. Alexander is also a cruel and depraved ruler, sending one of his underlings to the Agony Booth to be tortured for failing to capture his rival, Michael Burnham and executed Amanda Grayson for being a ''race traitor'' for marrying a Vulcan.
Edited by Overlord on Jun 13th 2020 at 3:23:54 AM
Goku Black
Damien
Yes to Damien.
@ACW: Syfy Channel Original Movie.
to Damien
to Walker (how did I forget him ?) and Damien.
Walker (I was hesitant but think he's heinous enough) and Damien
Lizzid people!
Walker. He sounds damn similar to Karl Stromberg, just minus the semi-altruistic environmentalist motive.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
I'll read the EP tomorrow, but a couple of clean up items:
- Alexander at the end of the IDW tree?
- I did research; Thor does indeed appear in a Stormbreaker issue, so I'll slot him at the end of Thor's tree.
So I found one keeper from the Star Trek Mirror Universe, I am curious if I could find one from the Cardassian Occupation of Bajor, a tragic backstory for Bajor, introduced in Next Generation and expanded on in Deep Space 9, where Bajor is invaded Cardassians and various Cardassian commanders commit a slew of war crimes on Bajor. The fake Gul Darhe'el from Deep Space 9 episode Duet is one of the best subversions of a Complete Monster I have seen. Gul Darhe'el himself only appears in the Terek Nor novels and apparently is not heinous enough for a Cardassian commander. The Cardassian military government is pretty vile, even by Star Trek standards.
Edited by Overlord on Jun 13th 2020 at 4:00:46 AM
I can't believe we were able to find another keeper for Batman the Animated Series, but in any case, to Walker.
Yes to Walker and Damien and I'd like to revisit Massacre here... he's a Vile Villain, Saccharine Show but having just tortured myself with the Cthulhu arc, I'm not sure he meets the Black Comedy heinous standard. Cthulhu tries to wipe out Earth (including a clip of stepping on a puppet of Obama bemoaning his presidency had almost ended), there's Kong's slavery and a litany of alcoholic and violent abuse Played for Laughs. Could you maybe make a resource case? Sure but that doesn't erase that damn near the same crime Massacre attempts, actually even further reaching, are used for comedy. It seems wrong having him listed, like if someone was played seriously and really bad in Family Guy but then the tone returns to normal and their crimes are replicated and exceeded by other characters and it's all stuff made light of. This probably isn't a great work to be fishing from.
Easy 'Yes' to Rushu, glad you got him up, Scrags!
Late, but 'Yes' to the Wasp King and the Roaches, and fare wishes your way, Fried, you'll always be welcome here if you ever change your mind!
Sure to the Yhwach quote
Mkay so here's a quickie one that I don't....think has been discussed on the thread before, at least not in detail, and who I think is long overdue for discussion.
What's the work?
Batman: The Animated Series is a classic 90s superhero cartoon starting the Dark Knight himself, Batman. Many here know of it and have watched it, so not much more to discuss in those terms except our candidate...
Who is he?
Grant Walker is the main antagonist of the Season 2 episode "Deep Freeze." An obvious Expy of Walt Disney, Walker is a wealthy industrialist, world-famous for his creative theme parks across the globe, however Walker harbors a darker desire than just entertaining the kiddies!
What has he done?
Opening the episode by sending a robot to break Mr. Freeze out of prison, Walker has him brought to his underwater "utopia" he has dubbed Ocean(i)a. Revealing that he has Freeze's sickly wife, Nora, kept alive only due to her cryogenic state, Walker offers to give her to Freeze so he can continue his research in saving her life, if Freeze will assist Walker with something...that is, repeating the accident that made Mr. Freeze's body "blessed with eternal cold," granting practical immortality.
Disregarding Freeze's warnings, Walker goes through with the experiment and gains his cold-blooded, immortal affliction, and then reveals what his grand, master plan is: Hoarding a select few people into Ocean(i)a, Walker plans to use a massive freeze cannon to bring about a years-long ice age to the Earth, hoping to wipe out all life on the planet that isn't inside Ocean(i)a, so then his "vision" of a utopia world can prosper.
Capturing Batman and Robin, keeping them alive solely so they can "watch the show," Walker prepares to initiate the freeze cannon, starting with icing over Gotham, but luckily, Mr. Freeze is convinced by Batman to save the billions of lives in danger, and begins sabotaging Walker's cannon. Though Walker tries to have Freeze killed, Freeze manages to coat Walker in ice and destroy the cannon, leading to Ocean(i)a exploding and Walker left to sink to the bottom of the ocean, his immortal state keeping him alive as he screams in rage from the bottom of the sea
Returning in the tie-in comic Gotham Adventures, Walker escapes from his frigid confinement at the bottom of the ocean 2 years later and tracks down Freeze, currently submitting himself to experiments by a group of scientists who hope to cure him. Blasting his way into the lab, freezing the head of Bruce Wayne to suffocate him (he lives, ofc, because he's Batman!), and nearly killing Freeze, Walker proceeds to kidnap the group of scientists under threat of murdering them all, hoping to use them to cure himself of the nasty side-effect that comes with chilled immortality: that is, the condition itself is slowly killing him.
Gleefully remarking that he's going to reignite his plans to freeze the entire world once he is cured, Walker is taken down as he tries to use the scientists as hostages when Freeze comes for him, threatening to kill them and doom Freeze to his cold existence forever before Walker is defeated and hauled away.
Freudian Excuse or other redeeming features?
Nothing in either, Walker is just a madman whose 'vision' for the future involves the death of billions and the institution of his own, new human race, spawning from his "Garden of Eden" as he calls it. He's nice enough to Freeze, but it's all just because he needs him and respects his freeze technology...the literal second Freeze starts working against him, Walker tries to kill him with a smile.
As for his claims of making a "utopia," it's all about Walker's ego and god complex (if the 'Garden of Eden' thing didn't clue you in). Thisexchange speaks for itself:
Walker's outright called out on the fact that it's all about what he wants and his order, and he outright smiles and remarks that he 'fails to see the problem' with that.
Heinousness?
The DCAU's got a high standard, but Walker? He's threatening billions of lives with nothing but businessman resources. He's no Darkseid, he's no Orm, he has the resources of someone like Lex Luthor, yet is punching way out of his weight class. Hell, the only other villain in Batman: The Animated Series to threaten so many lives is Ra's al Ghul, and he's got way more resources than Walker.
Threatening planets isn't rare for the DCAU, but it's nowhere near prevalent, and for Batman's rogue's gallery—who are usually at worst threatening just Gotham—Walker's trying to doom every last life on the planet to a cold, frigid death to supplant them with his own chosen few.
Final Verdict?
I'm saying Walker's a Keeper, one who's taken a surprisingly long time to get listed.
Edited by Ravok on Jun 13th 2020 at 2:41:14 AM
Tonight I dine on monkey soup.