During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Dutchman
The Draftsman of Doom
Dutchman.
Ultimate Moral Compass
The Flying Dutchman
to Dutchman and keeping Tengu Shredder
Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button
to Dutchman.
I have a short candidate of my own. Remember Lisbeth Fischer? She was deemed insufficiently heinous. Well, I found a fanfic version that passes.
What's the work?
Child of the Eclipse is a Life Is Strange 2 fic that serves as an alternate version of Episode 4. It is written from the perspective of Daniel, as he is integrated into the Haven Point cult, then later learns of the reason for his powers- his destiny to save the planet from an incoming asteroid.
So, to get it out of the way. Yes, the story, for how short it is, does have a substantial plot. The Haven Point thing only takes up the first half, as it then moves to Daniel's struggle to train himself so he can save the world with his powers. He even meets Max Caulfield from the first game at one point. In short, it is pretty much a character study for Daniel.
With that being said...
Who is Lisbeth Fischer? What does she do?
Lisbeth is, as in the game, the head of the Haven Point cult. Having known from a prophecy that Daniel will the the savior of the world, Lisbeth indoctrinated him into her cult. Everything she did in game is implied to also happen here.
So here is the new part.
One day, Lisbeth holds a 'salvation ceremony' for her followers. She has all the 'true-believers' assembled in the Church (people like Jacob are not welcome, as she considers them 'half-believers'). She puts Daniel at the center, and then has her and Nicholas bring out the blades of salvation.
The two then stab Daniel in both sides of his stomach, telling Daniel to hold in his power. Then they go up to the second floor, after which Nicholas shoots Daniel to get him to unleash his power. He does so, and the whole building is torn apart- and nearly everyone inside dies, including Sarah.
Yes, Lisbeth just engineered a mass murder/suicide.
Lisbeth, no longer needing Daniel, prepares to stab him in the heart and kill him for good, while dying herself. She tells him that she never though of him as a good child, seeing him only as wicked, and admits she was only using him, giving a speech about how she and her believes will go to heaven while everyone else burns on Earth. Just before Daniel can kill her, Sean and the others show up. They all leave, the police arrive, Lisbeth presumably blames the whole thing on Sean (the police are said to be looking for him on suspicions of bombing the church), and she is never seen again.
Heinousness?
Unlike the original game, where she is certainly loathsome but never directly kills anyone? Again, she orchestrated a mass murder/suicide, and did so by stabbing and shooting a child, then trying to kill him for good.
Mitigating Qualities?
As far as I am aware, she does not give a crap about her 'true believers' except in so far as they can give her narcissistic praise.
Verdict?
I ask/suggest that you read the fic linked above before voting. It should take maybe ten minutes at most.
Edited by MasterN on Feb 12th 2020 at 10:42:02 AM
One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.
Dutchman
After reading the fic, to Lisbeth as well. Given the manipulation, cutting Daniel off and falsifying a prophecy of the apocalypse (turns out the world is due to end, but she's full of shit and at best Right for the Wrong Reasons)
![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
Clayton
Suydam and Lisbeth
to Suydam and Lisbeth, and I'll change to on the Green Lady as well. to Clayton.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Huh, looks like Tengu Shredder's a keep.
Yes to Suydam, sure to Lisbeth.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
The funny thing about the Lady of the Green Kirtle is there's a debate notable enough to get mention on Wikipedia about her possible connection to the White Witch.
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
Yeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaahhhh, I'm gonna give my thought on Child of the Eclipse after work today. Granted is does seem long enough for her to possibly count.
I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
to Robert "Dutchman" Suydam and Lisbeth Fischer.
Dutchman and Lisbeth
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Yes to Dutchman and Lisbeth.
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
The Draftsman of Doom
Lisbeth.
Dutchman and Lisbeth
Still keeping my for Tengu
Goku Black
....I mean even if you don't compare to him the councillor. Romero also tries to wipe out humanity like tengu with zero resources effectively.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Can someone tally up where we stand on Tengu? I'm abstaining BTW.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Goku Black
Another sherlock holmes one from me. I've been having fun.
The Gaslight series is a set of four anthologies of short fiction combining the character of Sherlock Holmes with elements of fantasy, horror, adventure and supernatural fiction.
We've already discussed gaslight grimoire.
But their are four anthologies. So now I give you one from Gaslight Grotesque.
More specifically The Best Laid Plans by Robert Lauderdale
Who is professor James Moriraty
So this story is narrated interestingly enough by inspector lestrade who usually doesn't get much to do.
Anyway during the final problem. Lestrade with the help of holmes has busted Moriatry's origination. Lestarde and officers come to his base to arrest him.
Anyway a siege begins and Moroarty starts to glwoefully shoot his own men when one tried to escape, smiling the entire time. Lestrade and Moriarty engage after Moriarty has murdered his men with Lestrade killing him.
Leatrade then ventures into his base to find a horror scence.
Dozens of innocent people have been imprisoned and experimented on. Moriarty painfully stitching animals parts to them or mutating them. All of them now in horrible agony.be as some are unable to breath properly, move ,etc
One particulary dickish case asa a women who has key hanging from a hook set in the brick wall of her cell, just out of the woman’s reach. Specially so moriarty could torment her with the idea of escape being that close but not happening. Anyway a trap is activated to flood the chamber,killing the prisoners with lestarde just getting away.
Anyway Lestrade sense that something must he off and races to the morgue only to find Moriarty rising from the grave as a zombie. Lestrade is beaten off ans it goes towards the falls that he and Holmes would duel. Though we know who would win that.
No. Not really.
Other mitigating factors?
Meh. Story is weird at times but no Moriarty is a pure evil, sadistic monster. He has more then enough personality described to him and shown.
Only thing is the zombie thing isn't explained but the dude is an Evil Socreror here. So it's not weird.
Heinous standard?
Well yeah short story. Bad Boss beahovuoir, mass slavery, torture, experimentation leading to And I Must Scream. Killing all of his prisoners.
Pass.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Yes to Moriraty.
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Lizzid people!
Alright first EP for 2020 after I've been somewhat silent for a few good months primarily with practicing my writing (which some of my works have been narrated) among other things.
So Gretel and Hansel (2020). Another retelling of the Brothers Grimm fairy tale Hansel and Gretel. Much like with any other telling, Hansel and Gretel end up in the woods, in this case after their mother had a psychotic episode, and kind of threatened to hack her children up with an ax if they didn't leave (Gretel did try to get a job and went to an interview...but the guy quickly turned out to be a Dirty Old Man). Like the other versions, they end up meeting a seeming old lady (except no gingerbread house in this take).
Who is she?
The Wicked Witch has a name in this version, that being Holda. The movie features a fairy tale within a fairy tale about how a village girl was stricken by an ailment, so her father went to an enchantress to heal her. While the enchantress did so, she also left a power in the girl which granted the girl the ability to see into the future. She used her powers to kill others, including her own father by forcing him to devour a flaming tip of a metallic rod.
Holda resented her daughter and tried to send her away but she still lingered in her mind. But when the daughter told her that she too could have a share of her power if she "trusted the darkness." With that, she had to let go of her former life...doing so by killing and eating her other children. She then disguised herself as an old woman to lead more children to her house to kill and eat to increase her dark magic, racking up several bodies for their spirits to be trapped around her home.
What has she done?
Aside from the aforementioned luring children to consume, Holda takes Gretel under her wing as a means of helping her awaken to her witch powers (don't really know how she sensed them). Like the original tale, Holda starts feeding Hansel to fatten him up, but the exact motivation behind it is new to this film. Hansel starts to become suspicious of her, but Gretel quickly shuts that down.
Eventually, it seemed that Hansel had vanished. Gretel senses something to be amiss, and attempts to poison Holda. But...Holda anticipated it. She takes Gretel down into a room in the house where she reveals that the food that she and Hansel were eating were actually the body parts of children, demonstrating it previously by eating something and pulling a long strand of hair from her mouth. She explains to her that she'd unlock her true potential by tossing aside her barriers...in this case by eating her own brother.
She straps Gretel's wrists to the table to force her to watch her enchanted brother climb up a ladder and jump into the fire pit below. However, Gretel manages to use her magic to send her staff to Holda and rams her to the wall with it. She puts more force on it to decapitate her, ending her malevolent legacy, thereby freeing the souls of her victims.
Freudian Excuse? Mitigating factors?
This was something I consulted Lighty and Scraggle about in PMs. In her backstory, she explains that the story of the girl with the little pink cap was actually her child who she tried to get rid of out of anger from "taking everything from her" by having her husband kill herself. However, when she realized that she also could share her daughter's powers by severing her ties with any barriers to it, she accepts it willingly and kills and eat her remaining children. All for the sake of power.
With Gretel, she becomes a mentor of sorts when Gretel began to awaken to her own powers. On the main page for the film, there is a claim that Holda was being Affably Evil with the children even when her true nature is revealed after surviving the poison attempt on her life. But, no. I do not agree with that. Holda was largely interested in preserving her dark legacy as the primary reason for taking Gretel under her wing and tries to force her to eat Hansel knowing full well that Gretel vehemently opposed it going as far as to bind her hands to prevent her from intervening.
Heinous standard
Multiple child murders over the years as represented by the ghosts of the slain children. Ate her own children for power and consumed others to further empower her dark abilities. Also tried to force Gretel into eating Hansel.
Conclusion
Leaning towards a slight keep due to some aspects of her backstory. While she may have been angered by her daughter for killing her husband, she then went onto kill her other children in a gesture of freely tossing aside her former life.
Edited by AustinDR on Feb 13th 2020 at 6:30:37 AM
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Moriarty. Wait...he's very tall and thin. You would know him if you saw him for his eyes are sunken in?
Sure to Holda.
Also, I think Venom was ruled a keep, so I added him to the to-do list. What about I Spy?
Edited by ACW on Feb 13th 2020 at 9:26:21 AM
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
An Eldritch Troper
ACW, the I Spy entries were written up at this post.
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Goku Black
holda
