Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

to God and Satan, Jack The Ripper, Mengele, Colonel Spacek, Crainiac and Gadiros (having something that Roman sounds out of place considering its inspiration, but I guess its nitpicky when dealing with an ancient alien society that should predate that to).

@Delphine Huh...Another Skyrim character? Wonder who the candidate is. PM me if you're interested.

to seth and Gadrios

I'm gonna be blunt on this? I'm getting concerned about AC. What puts Gradiros on the same tier as Poldarkes and Ms. Serial Baby Torturer? He kills a bunch of people in an arena....Majd Addin ran Jerusalem as his personal slaughter factory, Torquemada ran the Inquisition, Maxwell Roth tried to burn down a huge building full of people and kill child workers, Pierre de Fayet tried to sink slave ships, Rufio slaughters innocents left and right...

What makes this guy stick out to all of them? Hell, from the EP itself: "Okay to break it down Persephone from the first episode has brainwashed her subjects to stay in Elysium and kills her subordinate when he fails her, Hades from the 2nd episode causes a lot of suffering to his people in the underworld, Juno and her husband Aita has kidnapped people throughout Atlantis and conducts horrific experiment on forcibly transforming them into monstrous abominations, and Poseidon decides to sink Atlantis taking the denizens with it." This isn't even getting into what other non-keepers do. Shay Cormac, who is nowhere close to a CM for like 80 reasons, started the French Revolution.

this ratchets up the standard even more to the point where I think we need to talk about cutting some other examples (especially Roth). How does Gadiros stand out to this? This seems a classic example of "he's the worst without redeeming qualities" instead of "he's got a unique niche and breaches the standard."

He's "just a low tier guy" has long since ceased to fly in AC. Tons of guys now have attempted some form of atrocity. You need a unique niche to carve out for this and trying to kill people in an arena doesn't fly.

Edited by Lightysnake on Jul 30th 2019 at 6:24:16 AM

Switching to Gadiros.

And can we start having actual scrutiny instead of rubber stamping on an EP? I'm getting really, really concerned that people just see an EP and go "okay, yeah" with no discussion.

I generally do look at effortposts. I do admit, I seem to have missed the actual way he might have stood out. But generally, I read it at least twice.

Okay, here it is, my very first EP.

The Work

The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim is a Role-Playing Game set in the fictional world of Nirn, more specifically the province of Skyrim, which has a long history of oppression from the Dragon Cult. Thousands of years ago, dragons ruled over mankind, with Skyrim at the heart of it. The dragons couldn't be bothered to constantly watch over the mortals beneath them, however, and delegated some of their authority and power to the Dragon Priests, who were free to act of their own accord so long as it kept the mortals under the dragons' feet.

As a whole, the Dragon Priests were cruel tyrants who subjugated their servants and commited unspeakable atrocities in the name of the dragons, but one in particular stands out in heinousness.

The character

In life, Rahgot was the last of the Dragon Priests, managing to stay in power centuries after the Dragon War was over, when the remaining dragons were either killed or banished and the Dragon Cult as a whole was reduced to a single temple known as Forelhost, secluded in the Jerall Mountains.

One day, a legion of soldiers learned of the existence of Forelhost and the Dragon Cult hidden within, and prepared to storm the place before they could do further harm. They seiged the temple for weeks on end, during which Rahgot came up with a plan to save himself at the expense of most of his loyal subjects.

Rahgot forced his alchemists to brew enough poison for the entire cult to commit ritualistic suicide, hoping that the sight would scare off the soldiers attacking his temple. He forced the cultists to kill their own children and even poisoned the waterhole for good measure, then had the rest either drink the poison or slit their own wrists.

If anybody questioned his orders, he'd kill them himself, as evidenced by his head alchemist, who wrote the following note, "But surely we cannot use these poisons on our own brothers and sisters! This plan is madness! Even if the main stairway is collapsed and they find those in the front chambers poisoned there is no telling that they will stop from clearing the rubble and coming through to burn our bodies before Alduin's return!

Rahgot, it is not that I fear death or refuse to lay down my life in the service of the gods. The snow elf raids in the northern lands may not be enough to draw off the Snow-Strider when he finds us dead. All know of his tenacity. If we are to die, then let us die with blades in our hands, rather than with poison on our lips and daggers at our children's throats!

—Head Alchemist Froda"

Rahgot replied with this note, "Froda, do not deter the other alchemists from their work. Your views are known to me and we shall have words about them shortly.

— Rahgot"

Both notes are found next to a dead draugr with a sword in her gut, making it quite obvious that Rahgot had murdered her.

Once the cult had finished with their mass suicide, the legion fled in horror of the sight of so many dead, not daring to venture deeper into the temple. Rahgot's plan had worked, and he lived the rest of his life in the deepest halls of Forelhost.

Mitigating factors

Rahgot's crimes were committed offscreen thousands of years ago, but in the game proper, all the evidence of his deeds can be found throughout Forelhost, such as a garden of the deathbells, an alchemy room with several poisons and lab tables, and the aforementioned body of the head alchemist. Rahgot himself is fought as an undead lich at the end of the temple, and while he doesn't speak a word, his crimes are all plain to see.

Aside from that, he has no redeeming qualities or Freudian Excuse to speak of.

Heinous standard

As said before, all the Dragon Priests were cruel and oppressive, but Rahgot's willingness to kill his own subjects, including the children, all just to save his own skin make him more than stand out, even if he isn't on the global-threat level of Alduin.

Verdict

From me.

Leaning yes to Rahgot...

Wait a minute, I thought there was something missing.

Delphine, you need to take ALL of the villains in a work into account for the heinousness standard.

I admittedly don't remember what the Heinousness of the elder scrolls looks like, but after Elfen's concerns have been raised, I'm gonna say no.

Otherwise, nicely done on your first effortpost.

Edited by SkyCat32 on Jul 30th 2019 at 9:42:14 AM

My issue with Rahgot... Not sure if he's pretty unique compared to say... Arondil, Kurdan or Slid. We downvoted a vampire guy from Elder Scrolls before for not being heinous enough and that should tell the heinousness standard of Elder Scrolls in general.

Also, no to the Assassin Creed villain then. I'll admit that I voted up a candidate posthaste probably because I don't know the work or I'm a bit lazy but yeah...

Edited by ElfenLiedFan90 on Jul 30th 2019 at 8:31:58 PM

Lighty, I'm fine with cutting some, but Maxwell "burning down a factory of child workers" Roth? Is the heinous standard THAT jacked?

Changing to a on Gadios. I'm not super familiar with AC's heinous standard, so it's not easy for me to evaluate him.

For Rahgot... are his crimes too offscreen to count?

I want to finish an earlier discussion that didn't go anywhere. Since Bloodrayne, and The Blair Witch Project video game trilogy are direct spinoffs of Nocturne, I'm wondering if we should put them in a tree together ?

And I ain't just talking about Easter Eggs or loose connections, since a major plot point in the first Bloodrayne is also a smaller plot point in Nocturne - both having a Macguffin in Beliar's Heart and Count Voicu's castle being an important setting, with both Voicu or his father (we only ever get their last name) being mentioned by name.

Likewise not only does the old Blair Witch games directly cross over with Nocturne with many of its characters showing up, a Nocturne side character being the lead, but it also has a minor crossover with Bloodrayne in that daimites are enemy creatures that show up in both games.

Besides there being five CM's in the game "verse", there's two others in the Bloodrayne film adaptations, which give us seven CM's in total of this "franchise", which made me consider making a page.

The only objection to an actual page I heard was how the movies - being adaptations - are not connected to the games, or part of the games canon. To which I say "Of course not, same goes for the Resident Evil and Silent Hill films to their respective games, but we still took them into account when giving them their pages."

And before you ask, no we wouldn't include any other Blair Witch examples to a hypothetical page because Blair Witch is an independent franchise that had no prior connection to Nocturne; the games only crossed over because Terminal Reality wanted to both capitalize on the Blair Witch title while expanding their own titles. The game trilogy is stand alone to the other Blair Witch expanded universe (of which there is a lot, continuty varies Depending on the Author) and the games have no real impact on the other Blair Witch material.

Bloodrayne on the other hand, has no such independence. Sure it's more famous, popular and successful, making a name for itself, but the source materiel is still taken from and tied to Nocturne.

Hi, Delphine, great job for a first EP!

I'm gonna need to talk to Scraggle and Fried, as they know the HS more than I do of Skyrim...my concern is less Alduin, but moreso Kurd, Sild, etc...it's a high standard to breach

Yeah, even if he will got downvoted at the end of the day, great job at your first EP @Delphine

However, since I'm not an expert of Elder Scrolls...Yeah. I'll let the experts took care of it

Edited by ElfenLiedFan90 on Jul 30th 2019 at 8:42:13 PM

@ACW: We have regular genocide and slaughter now in AC....killing kids isn't an ultra unique crime anymore. I'm willing to cut some slack to early entries, or guys who truly stick out, but people lower than Roth do some nasty damage. Braddock massacres Native villages, kids included, Chrysis is a serial baby torturer (I will never, ever get over that)

Well, neither Slid or Arondil killed any kids, and I would say that Rahgot was as cruel as he could be with the resources he had, so I think he stands out among them too.

While his actions may have been committed offscreen, we still see the consequences all through the dungeon.

Edited by DelphineTheDelphox on Jul 30th 2019 at 6:50:16 AM

I'll say this about Rahgot as someone who played the game, I think Rahgot is the only "confirmed" individual that has killed children or even better force his own people to kill their own children which I must say is a pretty horrific thing and one of the worst things you can do to a person. Sure it may be off-screen, but I do think the set pieces given can tell enough of the character through aesthetic communication. While jacked up, I don't think anyone in at least Skyrim forcibly having their own companions kill their own kids. Possibly other games, but considering the how this is the only one I think is in Skyrim, I'd give a for him.

By the, for me at least I don't compare heinous levels if the media take place in entirely different locations and settings, even if they take place in the same universe. Don't know why but different environments to me should restart the heinous level, especially if the areas feel completely different.

Seth

Gadrios

Abstain on Rahgot for now

Good heavens, that standard IS jacked. The fact he targets kids makes me lean more towards keeping him, but considering there IS the serial baby torturer...I'm wondering if Pactyas could go too.

As for Bloodrayne...I don't favor the page, but I'm fine putting it in a tree...Terminal Reality-Verse?

Mmmmm....I think I'll lean yes on Raghot for now for that niche, though I do want to see what Scrags and Fried say.

Oh, and no. Do not put them together for that. Bloodrayne is not linked to Blair Witch and it's barely connected to anything but Bloodrayne. We don't need groupings on what amount to easter eggs.

Admittedly, I should have waited to vote until Scraggle and Fried Warthog weighed in.

I don't know which series are on your to-do list. If I did know who was familiar with a work, I'd wait for their vote.

Edited by SkyCat32 on Jul 30th 2019 at 9:59:13 AM

Got to wonder, is there any media you would wait for my opinion if there was a candidate propose? Just curious if there is a series tied to me.

Yes to God and Satan (A Rare Sentence), ACW's duo, Spacek, Crainiac, Seth, and Raghot.

No to Gadiros, and I agree that the AC page needs serious reevaluation. Also, I know this is a bit late, but I vote for non-sapient animals affecting the heinous standard of a work.