Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

There’s a ton of Satans who are CM worthy. We have plenty on the list currently.

does hazheel thorne counts as one?

As far as satanic cms goes... We have, Randall Flagg, that Devil Stellarvore proposed, Castlevania version... Etc etc.

Enigmatic Mastermind, I don't understand the nature of your question, but genrally Moral Agency isn't an issue because as a Fallen Angel, by definiton they are beings that chose their path.

Edited by Beast on Dec 13th 2018 at 11:17:28 AM

What everyone else has said, in celebration of the 5000th page I think someone did a CM version count and Satan was somewhere on the top 10.

No but his dad does.

Edited by 43110 on Dec 13th 2018 at 12:17:59 PM

@Elfen: Flagg is more of a Satanic Archetype being intended to be a satan-like figure but not actually satan in name (Like Morgoth and Evolto)

Edited by miraculous on Dec 13th 2018 at 9:20:43 AM

Ichiro Ougi.

Yeah. There are a bunch of the Judeo-Christian Satan versions who keep. Though he’s like as not to be portrayed as a noble demon as well

That makes sense. Same goes with other Satanic Archetype such as Westcott. (Although its debatable at best)

And yeah, other satan that counts... That monkey from Mark Millar comics Ravok proposed, Numspa, etc etc.

Regarding Satan: The Devil's Advocate, End of Days, The Divine Comedy (still on my reading list, and I have a copy on me), Castlevania: Lords of Shadow, and arguably Nyarlathotep, if you subscribe to the belief that Satan is one of his avatars ...

He's technically not Made of Evil, since traditionally speaking, he was an angel who was spoiled rotten by daddy and grew to envy his power. That is, unless you follow the idea that everything's pre-ordained^note Not trying to start a theological discussion here, in which case, yes, you're absolutely right that he was. But then again, try to apply the same logic to Apep or Ahriman.

Edited by Stellarvore on Dec 13th 2018 at 11:33:02 AM

@Beast what I meant was that many stories with Satan in them, they have him viewed as he is evil because he is meant to be.

Plus, as you said, he chose to oppose God and therefore is evil by choise, but he isn't even listed as a Complete Monster on The Bible's YMMV page.

Edited by Enigmatic_Mastermind on Dec 13th 2018 at 9:27:28 AM

The Bible never says that he chose to oppose God. That belief is rooted in a mistranslated passage about Nebuchadnezzar, which has since become the source of today's depictions of him. Even then, he doesn't do many truly nasty things in the Bible beyond his temptation of Job to qualify as especially heinous. I probably should have said "apocryphally" instead of "traditionally".

I wasn't trying to start a flame war or anything there. Just pointing out that that was one of Satan's more blatantly cruel moments.

Hmmm ... Satan as the Red Dragon probably wouldn't qualify, but I'm kinda thinking that perhaps one of Beasts (particularly Sorath, ahem, the second beast) might. I'll have to finish Revelation sometime. Though then again, they both seem to be Made of Evil, so perhaps not.

Edited by Stellarvore on Dec 13th 2018 at 11:44:25 AM

@acw: Right yeah. For CHERUB, the fall predates the others so put this entry on top.

I think that will be it from that series barring anyone counting in CHERUB'S prequel Henderson's Boys (Might be possiblke since the villains are Nazis and its actually Darker and Edgier than CHERUB) but I havent read it yet.

Edited by miraculous on Dec 13th 2018 at 9:34:33 AM

Yeah the original biblical view of Satan is basically a prosecutor rather than a monster.

And uh. The morals dissonance with the story of Job? I’m not touching that one here.

Edited by Lightysnake on Dec 13th 2018 at 9:35:02 AM

I forgot to Ichiro.

I also plan to do some Lost Tapes revisits. Mostly to tie loose ends since the last LT candidate didn't reach a conclusion due to their poster being banned. In on itself, I don't think tha's grounds to dismiss a candidate. So while I'm watching something notalgic there's a short list of sapient villains, most aren't heinous enough, but I figure I might as well get an anti EP out of the way with this one.

The Owlman was one of the few sentient monsters on the show and is stated to be a demon that's been terrorizing the area. They present it as a cannibalistic Slenderman expy that makes a habit of stalking and psyhcologically tormenting and eating its victims, prefering children. Why doesn't it make the cut ? While it's stated to be sentient and inteligant to know that the filmmakers are coming for it before they even arrive, this thing doesn't talk, with it's inentions being spoken of by those with intimaite knowledge of it (an old woman and a child it's stalking). And psychologically torturing and eating people ? Isn't that kind of generic demon behaviour ? Also it leaves the other protagonists and the girl alone when the old woman sacrifices herself when it had no reason to do so at that point.

So why waste my time writing on that one ? Becasue he was the first of three on my list. Also on an unrelated note, I'm gonna be seeing Spiderman Into The Spiderverse tonight ? I can't think of a witty comment about movies in my city coming early at the moment.

Satan is much more active in Revelation, but even then, I don't really know if he (or either one of his cohorts) is eligible for this trope.

As for versions of Satan that are a CM: Just check here.

Also, as for Johnson and J., there'll be going to the main Video Games page, but the mods are behind (that's why I haven't submitted the Super Sentai rewrites yet).

Alright moving on from us discussing a Never again list characrter. Anyone got an ep?

Btw anyone wanna guess who my profile pic is ?

Edited by miraculous on Dec 13th 2018 at 10:14:56 AM

Alright, in general, people seem cool with this, so I'll go ahead and commence the effortpost...

What's the work?

Deltarune, a sequel to the famous indie smash hit Undertale. This game takes place in an alternate universe to the first game with more than a few noticeable differences: Toriel the goat hermit is a kindergarten teacher and pearl-clutching church mom, Alphys is a nervous wreck of a school teacher and a giant pushover, her Undertale girlfriend Undyne is a cop who doesn't know she exists, Mettaton is a meek ghost with no glam rocker robot body... but most importantly, monsters were never forced underground and live a peaceful coexistence with humans.

So in this game, you play as Toriel's adopted human child Kris who is living a normal life until one day at school, he's asked to accompany the school's resident dinosaur bully Susie to the supply closet to grab chalk for Alphys' class. Upon entering the closet, Kris and Susie are transported to a mysterious, bizzare dimension called the Dark World and are forced to work together to fend off playing card themed-attackers. They soon meet a friendly, peace-loving (and fluffy) dark prince named Ralsei who informs them that they're prophesised heroes known as the Delta Warriors who have to restore balance to the world which is in danger of being overwhelmed by darkness produced from a newly built dark fountain that will destroy it if left unchecked.

Now it's predeccesor Undertale was an idealistic game where no one (Save Chara, maybe, if you don't subscribe to the annoyingly commonplace "Chara was a good guy who did nothing wrong" theory) was truly a bad person and could be reasoned with and talked down, even the crazy genocidal flower who sought to lock the protagonist in an eternal time loop of being brutally killed. In Deltarune? The subject of this effortpost utterly laughs at and spits on such a notion.

Who's the villain?

The King, the unnamed ruler of the Dark World, father of reccuring antagonist-turned buddy (and best boy) Lancer, and guardian of the dark fountain that threatens to swallow the world of light in darkness. He's an obese, monstrous freak with a mouth on his belly that has a tongue he can use as a chain weapon, and really, really hates inhabitants of the light world Kris and Susie hail from.

What has he done?

In the past, the King was one of four rulers of the Dark World, before meeting a mysterious knight who planned on plunging the world of light in darkness. Due to feeling betrayed and abandoned by the Lightners, who once lived in harmony with the Darkners before their worlds were separated, the King happpily threw in his lot with the Knight and overthrew the other kings. Now locking the kings away and annexing their lands, the King became a heartless asshole of a dictator who happily fires and abandons his staff on a whim and will heartlessly lock his subjects away in circus cages for the smallest of charges, such as a guy who made a puzzle without his authority.

Now the King acts as the guardian of the Eastern Dark Fountain, and happily guards it in hopes of letting it overwhelm the light world so he can take over it and bring suffering and misery to it's inhabitants. When Kris and Susie arrive in the Dark World with Ralsei in tow, he orders his son Lancer and his minions to kill them. However, Lancer instead imprisons them in the castle's dungeons in hopes of somehow convincing dear old dad to let them live since he's come to view them as friends, something he lacks.

But when the trio escape and confront the king near the fountain, we find out that he's not exactly happy with Lancer. And by not happy, I mean that he grabs Lancer in a chokehold and threatens to hurl him off the castle to his death if the heroes don't bow and submit to him. Not wanting to see their buddy splatted against the ground, the heroes do as he says, and in turn the King tries to butcher them on the spot while forcing Lancer to watch so he can teach him a lesson about befriending those damn dirty Lightners. Lancer however catches him off guard with a surprise attack and gives the heroes a chance to fight back. One fun boss fight later, the king is beaten down and exhausted, and knowing that he can't win? Breaks down nearly in tears and seemingly regretful of what he's done, appealing to the hero's merciful side by asking for forgiveness, promising that he never actually wanted to kill the Lightners and that he's willing to try for a peaceful resolution if he's healed...

...but when boy scout Ralsei heals and forgives him? The King thanks him by brutalizing the heroes and mocking him for his naive nature before trying to execute them one by one, starting with Kris... only for Susie to save the day with a swing of her axe! And depending on how you've treated the enemy monsters, the king is either pacified with a sleeping spell by Ralsei, or overthrown by Lancer and the Darkners he treated so horribly and thrown into the dungeons he loved imprisoning people in. The fountain is soon shut down and the heroes return home with the two worlds' balance restored... for the moment. A mostly happy ending save for the terrifying stinger that won't be resolved for years. Gaaaaaah

Is he heinous by the standards of the story?

I think so, but there's room for debate.

Overall, the King is a high ranking lackey of the unseen Greater-Scope Villain the Knight who is the one who created the fountain that threatened to destroy the world... but he's a willing, gleeful participant in this plan and actively seeks to bring suffering and misery to the Lightners.

Now as king of the Dark World, he's definitely not as bad as he could be for a horrible tyrant: he's a dick to his subjects and locks them in prison for the pettiest of reasons, but he's not full on torturing and executing them. That would be a mark against him, but I also feel that he more than makes up for it with his cruelty on a personal level. Him trying to murder his son, then forcing him to watch as he tries to kill his friends is a horribly cruel action that is worse than anything shown in this game. Then, there's him taking advantage of Ralsei's kindness by manipulating him into showing him mercy only to stab the heroes in the back. That's a level of callousness and cruelty that was hardly seen in the first game and still unheard of in the darker setting of this game until now, and comes off as especially awful given the first game's idealistic messages and emphasis on showing your enemies mercy (Which while downplayed, is still encouraged in Deltarune).

So overall, the fact that he has a genocidal endgoal and has personal cruelty to help him be more than just a middleman for his unseen boss helps his case I feel. And since this is an alternate universe from Undertale, the heinous standard of that game doesn't affect his chances... and even if it did? I think he'd still make it. Flowey and Chara are on a whole different level as far as strength and power go, and he's far crueler and nastier than all the other normal monsters you fought in that game. Now once the game releases years later, he could be outdone by the Knight, the Queen (a mysterious and terrible figure mentioned by bonus boss Jevil) and other potential minor villains... but honestly? I think the whole abusive parents angle is likely still enough to let him hold onto this status.

Does he have redeeming qualities or a legitimate Freudian Excuse?

To be fair, he comes off as legitimately betrayed by the Lightners and feels as if he and his people have been abandoned by them. That's gotta suck... but doesn't come close to justifying what he's done. He's still a callous, greedy dickhead who treats his subjects and own kid like shit which has nothing to do with being abandoned by the Lightners and even when offered forgiveness from the Lightner heroes, he's still willing to take advantage of their kindness and brutalize them as his idea of a thank you present.

And as for redeeming qualities, none of them hold up. During his boss fight he talks about getting justice for the Darkners, but he's clearly obsessed with getting justice for himself: he already abuses his Darkner subjects and threatens to kill them all in the ending where he's overthrown by Lancer. Plus, he's willing to kill Ralsei and Lancer, fellow Darkners for associating with Lightners making it clear that he's driven by genocidal hatred and nothing more. And he's also incredibly loyal to the Knight, but it's more of him swearing fealty to a guy willing to pander to his genocidal worldview rather than anything truly redeeming.

Oh, also his character page on this site has an Even Evil Has Standards entry citing his refusal to let Lancer hear or say swear words. Considering that this is the same son he neglects, tries to kill, and forces to watch his friends die to prove a point, I don't think letting Lancer be a pottymouth counts as mitigating at all, lol.

Final Thoughts?

I was unsure of the King counting at first, but talking with Kylotrope over PM's convinced me that I could make a case for him. On a personal level he's a disgusting parent and a manipulative piece of shit willing to brutalize heroes who let their guard down to show mercy to him, which flies in the face of the themes of optimism and pacifism in the previous game. And on a grander scale, his active contributions to the Knight's plot to destroy the world still helps him stand out as awful on a wider scale. And since the main game won't be coming out in years (Toby Fox, the creator has hinted that it could take as much as seven at the most) I see no harm in putting him up now and cutting him years later should something mitigating/someone who outclasses him comes up. And also, Toby has said that the final product could result in a different chapter 1, so should that happen? The King could still be a valid qualifier in the context of the demo version a'la Vlad Tepes from the Berserk prototype.

And as an aside, given this game's theme that some people are truly awful and can't be reasoned with, don't be surprised if the full release gives us new qualifiers. I've got my eye on the Knight and whoever the mysterious "Queen" is... but also? If the ending is going where I think it's going... Chara might be worth revisiting in the future. Just saying. ;)

So yeah, with all said and done, vote away!

Edited by FriedWarthog on Dec 13th 2018 at 10:10:51 AM

As said in P Ms to the Spades King.

Edited by Kylotrope on Dec 13th 2018 at 10:42:34 AM

The King. Sounds like an unbelievable asshole.

King.

King

to Krampus, Dr. Oswald Harrison, Dust Devil and the King.

King

Dust Devil, King.