During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Maintaining position and abstaining on narrator... having read the story itself the whole situation is way too ambiguous given the purposeful lack of detail.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
I'm not surprised, with how many movies he's been in. I'm STILL shocked that Christopher Lee doesn't have a CM.
Yeah, there are too many things that, while alone may be fine, when combined are too much for him to count.
In love with an Uptown Girl
You guys remember the Bad Little Kid?
I'm thinking of giving him another try, cause it seemed to pretty much ambiguous by the end about whether he is a CM or not. However, I think I can convince you guys fairly easily if I give it another go.
Please allow me to introduce myself, I am a man of wealth and taste. Nice to meet you, hope you can guess my name.
Was there not a MAJOR heinous issue in addition to the question of agency?
Anyways, if you wanna repost please review the previous discussion and be 110% you’re actually posting new info.
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
Are you going to post new info?
edited 1st Nov '17 12:21:56 PM by 43110
In love with an Uptown Girl
I don't think I was able to convey the moral agency enough. And if I recall, the bad little kid would always make a perfectly nice, decent person feel responsible for one of his murders, letting them live with the guilt of what happened. That's got to meet the Stephen King heinous standard.
Please allow me to introduce myself, I am a man of wealth and taste. Nice to meet you, hope you can guess my name.
Goku Black
Keep in mind that the BLK needs to compete with since it is a supernatural entity randall flagg, penywise,atrophos, Lelaund gaunt, kurt barlow and now tak, so this is an uphill battle. Still I am curious, so an effort-post would be nice.
Write-up time : Missing 2012 : Martin Newman serves as the true Big Bad and the Evil Mentor to Becca. Once her CIA handler, he would later don the alias suspect zero and become the leader of a rogue group of agents only motivated by Greed. Responsible for many atrocities throughout the world such as arms dealing, his most vile act would be too kidnap countless teenage girls from Eastern Europe to sell them of to the highest buyers with some being brutally scarred thanks to this. Not even his own godson is safe from his cruelty as he would kidnap him to blackmail the boy's father and later attempted to kill him for being a loose end. Near the end of the show, he would attempt to sell stolen nuclear material to terrorists not even caring about the potential lives lost. Motivated only for his desire for money, Martin would ruin the lives of countless innocents just to make a quick buck.
Added to drafts.
edited 1st Nov '17 1:21:57 PM by miraculous
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Killing people and framing innocents is...not a unique crime for Stephen King
Honestly murders and framing people are pretty generic in Stephen King. I don't see how that compares to what Pennywise does.
Goku Black
Yes that is nothing comapred to what the other supernatural CM's have done which include randall flagg, penywise,atrophos, Lelaund gaunt, kurt barlow and now Tak. It simply does not stand out enough.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
I just wanted to make a quick post about this for posterity's sake. It's been two weeks since South Park: The Fractured but Whole was released. Obviously, no one counts, but Cartman is probably at the worst he's ever been and I can actually understand why people once wanted him put up.
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
Eh... I thinks Cartman's done worse in the past. His actions in the game where he gets people high on cat urine, kiddnapping the New Kid's parents, trying to become mayor seems tamed compared to he previous act such as when he manipulates Cthulhu into committing genocide on those he hates. Plus, Cartman tricking a kid into eating his own parent is still the crown jewel of the most horrific act he has committed and one of the most memorable acts of crossing the Moral Event Horizon throughout all of media.
edited 1st Nov '17 3:54:38 PM by G-Editor
If we talk anymore about Cartman this thread will go off-topic very quickly. So I think we should stop the conversation now.
I concur. He’s a solid non-contender.
Okay moving on, I found an possible images that can go to the CM image page. Take a look:
- Shogo Makishima◊ from Psycho-Pass.
- Karl Tanner from Game Of Thrones
Also I posted El Sueno's image recently yet no one has committed on he could also go to the CM image page as well as the Decapitation Presentation page. Take a look:
Lastly I've trying to find an image to go on Ripper Street's Monster page and so far I can only find Sir Arthur Donaldson strangling Rose.
◊
Please tell me your thoughts these images.
edited 1st Nov '17 4:04:32 PM by G-Editor
Cartman's the biggest dick who will never count.
I think I'll have something for you all soon. But it's not going to be awfully pleasant, I'll tell you what.
changing vote to ![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
for narrator. He shows no love to his "wife" but the part with his daughter is wayy too vague to be subverted.
So it's a case where a character who's supposed to be a CM accidentally ends up not being one.
@98689
What's the new EP coming up on about? It dosen't seem to be a work you reserved.
edited 1st Nov '17 4:16:35 PM by xie323
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Try us. We've had genocidal Sex Slave-rs, pedophilic serial killers, and worse.
Yes to the Makishima image, Tanner requires too much context, sure to Sueno. Arthur Donaldson's image may be too slightly NSFW, but it can't hurt to try it on the image pickin' stuff.
edited 1st Nov '17 4:08:31 PM by ACW
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
I'll say that's Bondrewd actually. But we already discussed him almost 3 weeks ago and there's really no point mentioning him.
I'm slightly curious on who Phantom's next effortpost is about now.
EDIT: Actually the worst villain we've done that will never count is Vukmir from A Serbian Film. But we'll never speak of that movie again.
edited 1st Nov '17 4:10:12 PM by ReynTime250
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Eh, if we're doing that kind of stuff, there are plenty as bad or worse than Vukmir.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
I'll send Makishima's and Sueno's images to the draft page. I'll also a Sir Arthur Donaldson image to the drafts as well. Maybe you might be able to edit out some the nudity present.
I have a definite cut today:
• Assassin's Creed Chronicles: Zhang Yong serves as the Big Bad of the China installment and proves to be this subseries's most evil character. Serving as the leader of the Eight Tigers, a powerful organization within the Templar Order that controls the Chinese Imperial Court; he had gotten this position by assassinating the Zhengde Emperor and framing its previous leader, Liu Jin, for the deed, condemning him to a slow and painful execution dubbed "Death of a Thousand Cuts" note lasting for two days straight. Assuming control of the Eight Tigers, Zhang Yong proceeds to manipulate the newly-appointed Jiajing Emperor to eradicate the entire Assassin Brotherhood in China, with only Shao Jun and her mentor escaping the onslaught. When they return, Zhang Yong decides to leave the other members of the Eight Tigers at their mercy while proceeding to burn a harbor and then the Forbidden City, casually killing innocents along the way, all because Shao Jun just happens to be at those areas; he later kills her mentor himself. When Shao Jun manages to survive all those attempts and chases Zhang Yong down to The Great Wall, the latter decides to allow The Mongolians to destroy the wall and invade China, reasoning that should the country fall, at least he won't be to blame for its destruction.
Here’s the thing: I played this recently and just about everything here is false. Let’s break it down:
- He framed Liu Jin, yes, but the Zhengde Emperor executed almost everyone he suspected of treason that way, so it’s hardly a unique way to off someone.
- He did not kill the Zhengde Emperor, while we’re on it. He died later and the game never mentions how. How could the Emperor have had Liu Jin executed if he was dead?
- He killed the Assassins. Big whoop, he’s a Templar that’s what they do.
- He did not burn the harbour. That was one of his lackeys doing it of his own accord to punish the people for Shao Jun’s actions against them.
- He did not burn the Forbidden City. This one really confuses me, because that was Shao Jun herself! It was an accident during a boss fight but still.
- He never “abandons” the Eight Tigers. The worst is him leaving before the aforementioned boss fight… because his subordinate asked him to. He wanted to deal with Shao Jun himself.
- He does kill her mentor. Again, big whoop.
- He does let the Mongolians in to try and keep power.
Furthermore, he never does anything that suggests he isn’t yet another WIE Templar. He even gives the box to his other Templars to take out of China rather than keep it for himself.
He doesn’t belong. Even taking into account how we account for heinousness in Ass Creed, he is not nearly bad enough.
Please join me in burning this entry.
Haven't played Assassin's Creed in years but a glance at the monster page and the points you raise lead me to agree with you there, Polar.
There is an ongoing fanfiction called Muffins, which is a recursive fan work of Cupcakes. In it, the Pie sisters have, tortured, killed, and eaten hundreds of ponies, including children. They will never count because 1 they care for each other, and 2 we don't allow grimdark trash like that on here.
Just saying, we have seen plenty of villains who have done horrible things, and either do or don't qualify. From Rapelay, to the Human Centipede movies, to Serbian Film, to countless creepypastas, we have dealt with the absolute worst. I don't even think a cannibalistic, necrophiliactic, pedophilic serial killer would shock us. Just try and shock us.
jjj
In case anyone was wondering, requesting the cut for Zhong Yong was the unpleasant thing I was talking about.
I'm a little amused at how many seem to think I had some tasteless villain to propose. But nah, I ain't stealing Ravok's gimmick.
John Carradine has, Side from Heydrich, Walter Machen.