During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
As for mine: Shaula Gorgon, Karen Bright, and Floriana Campo though I have the feeling I've done more but can't remember. I know I once had Mana Ouma but she was cut for various reasons.
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
RJ-19-CLOVIS: That's what I meant for "various reasons."
edited 28th Apr '17 5:36:29 PM by G-Editor
"Females seem to be played more sympathetically than usual"
Say that to Ragyo Kiryuin then. One of the most disgusting villains even for [CM] standards.
I've put up a lot of female villains. Probably the most vile in my immediate recollection is Sayara Yamanobe from Mnemosyne...
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Short entry, but yeah, she seems bad. As does, though despite not having as high a body count, Anita Roycewood.
edited 28th Apr '17 5:21:19 PM by ACW
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
With Mana Ouma, it wasn't because she was female but because the Apocalypse Virus compromises her moral agency and/or free will
Closest I was to proposing a female CM was two of the Betrayal at House on the Hill traitors who will always be certain characters (both females) provided those characters are in play for their respective haunts
Lizzid people!
As far as proposing female antagonists go for me, there was Diana Walter (my personal favorite), the Witch Queen, Ellen Berent Harland, Rose Armitage, Nafumi Shintani, Ruth Chandler, SCP-352 among others.
edited 28th Apr '17 5:57:30 PM by AustinDR
To my knowledge I've had exactly two female qualifiers, Queen Nakari and Annabelle Skinner.
I do however have another potential qualifier whose female on the backburner.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
This needs more input BTW.
Caesar
A 'Yes' to Modru, Analogman, and I suppose Cipher, though I'd like to note that all newcomers should check the Discussion Dates page, located at the top of any page on the thread. Lord Xavius may have been fine with someone basically swiping his proposal, but I'd say that said person lucked out on him being so chill with it.
As has been said a million times before and will no doubt be said a million times more, check the FAQ and Discussion Dates pages before posting anything here. Please.
For female CMs, there has definitely been an influx of them these past few months, but ultimately, female villains will never be portrayed as "pure evil monsters" near as much as males. Female villains are, in general, played far more sympathetic and redeemable than males across media.
Say it's feminism, say it's an age old cliche, say it's just writing fumbles, but females just aren't written as CMs to near the capacity that males are, and it will likely never change.
Aaaanywho, as for my female CMs, I've actually only proposed....about 5, I THINK. The recent Jennifer, the manga villain Niardi from Biomega, Roodaka and Tuyet from BIONICLE, and Medea from the Light Novel Rising of the Shield Hero are the only ones I can think of at the moment.
Which, considering the sheer number I have proposed (Not a boast or anything, just a fact), makes that number even more telling that female CMs just aren't that common when compared to males.
Though I will note that, when a femlae IS a CM? She will often be one HECK of a monstrous psycho. Ragyo Kiryuin, Ruth Chandler, Rita Repulsa, Medea....all definitely hang in the higher regions of wicked CM villains around these parts.
WHAT A WONDERFUL DAY!
One of my favorite female complete monsters I've put up? Apollyon from For Honor.
Honestly, the main reason for the lack of female candidates is likely twofold. 1) Most fiction uses male protagonists, and accordingly, male villains. And while there's been an uptick in fiction with female protagonists, there is not a similar uptick in the number of female badguys. 2) A female villain that does appear in a work with a male protagonist runs a very good chance (like most female characters) of having her arc revolve around that protagonist, rather than being a character in her own right.
Fiction is still male centric and female characters of all non-traditional feminine types suffer for it.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Scariest thing about Ruth is that she was based on a real case. Good luck sleeping tonight.
Lizzid people!
@Ravok: Yeah, that's true. I mean, that issue happened to me three times. For instance, in Criminal Case, there was one woman who stole a weather machine, and threatened to turn a town back into a swamp with a hurricane, just because she didn't get the insurance for her estate. Another was a seemingly kind old woman who ran a brainwashing system, wherein she forces children to kill each other in a Hunger Games-styled game. Neither counts.
edited 28th Apr '17 6:09:01 PM by AustinDR
Ironically, one of the least heinous candidates I've proposed is Sedessa... and some of my most heinous are the Squid Queen and Rita, the former especially so as I think she's literally got the highest attempted bodycount out of any villain I've proposed, period.
It's kind of disturbing that we get examples that were based on real life people. Amon Goeth often comes to mind when I think of who would qualify for this trope in real life.
edited 28th Apr '17 6:22:11 PM by ThePest179
The Unknown Unknown
Only female one I've proposed that I can remember is Akasha. And, boy, was she pretty nasty despite her limited on-screen appearance. And she was That One Boss.
A cruel, sick joke is still a joke, and sometimes all you can do is laugh.
Caesar
Ah yes, the Sylvia Likens case. One of my first glimpses into the monstrosities capable by humanity, but certainly not the last. Read the detailed interviews and story of that when I was...oh, around 13, I'd say. Has stayed with me ever since.
A fun fact about both the person Ruth was based on and ESPECIALLY Amon Goeth: Both were WORSE in real life than in their respective films depending on who you ask. Amon specifically was known to feed prisoners live to his dogs alongside many other unsavory acts that Spielberg, the director of Schindler's List for those unaware, refused to put into the movie.
Why? Because he thought that an audience unaware of Goeth's crimes would believe Spielberg had overexaggerated Amon's evil. Lovely chap, that one.
edited 28th Apr '17 6:33:32 PM by Ravok
WHAT A WONDERFUL DAY!
Lizzid people!
Don't worry, Girl Next Door in no way shape or form exploits the real life tragedy it was based on. For one, David (the protagonist of the book and film) doesn't exist, i. e. he has no real life counterpart. Ruth comes to take care of Susan and Meg when their parents die in a car accident, whereas in the real life tragedy, the girls were placed under Gertrude's care by their parents who were carnival workers. There are other differences, but I feel that it would be all day to go through them all.
edited 28th Apr '17 6:33:36 PM by AustinDR
There's also in fewer female characters than male ones in general in fiction, especially in the kind of fiction that often produces Complete Monsters (action, thriller, sci-fi/fantasy...).
Alrighty, so LS has a proposal tonight...probably a few over the weekend...I've got a proposal for us tonight! From the bad film list...
Steven Seagal's The Patriot...Seagal plays Wesley McClaren, former immunologist, current holistic medicine expert, lover of Native American spirituality and martial arts god who lives with his daughter Holly. a mysterious virus is racing through their town of Ennis, Montana...and the man responsible is our candidate.
Who Is He and What's He Done?'
Floyd Chisolm is a fat, greasy militia man who has been, in an obvious play on the militia fervor of the 90s, involved in a long siege with his men as he quotes Thomas Jefferson and...Franklin D. Roosevelt who was totally known for his beliefs on small, limited government. Chisolm then decides to...give himself up, telling his men to stand down so he can be arrested. As the government only has a warrant for Chisolm himself, they arrest only him. Yeah, that's...how it works. (Seriously, they're at LEAST material witnesses!)
But Chisolm has injected himself with a deadly virus, believing he has the vaccine. In a trial in Ennis County courthouse, Floyd launches into a furious diatribe on how the federal government is illegitimate and he dares them to try him. Finally, he furiously spits at the judge to...you guessed it...spread the virus! As opposed to try for good old fashion jury nullification in a town clearly sympathetic to his views.
The virus spreads like wildfire, killing the judge first, and then several others. Floyd's right-hand man pretends to be his lawyer, seeing him in jail where they find out that...Floyd's not as immune as he thought and the antitoxin is only temporary. Floyd, now realizing this may not have been the best plan, tells his right hand man to rally the troops and spring him while everyone is distracted with the viral outbreak. When said right hand man brings up how dangerous this is, Floyd simply remarks he fully expects his men to be ready to die for him
Floyd's men storm the prison, killing those in their path and break Floyd out. Floyd then leads an attack on the hospital, killing a bunch of people and personally executes a doctor who gives him answers he doesn't like. By stunning coincidence, our hero McClaren is there with his daughter Holly...and Holly is, by an astounding coincidence...fighting off the infection herself! Unfortunately, Floyd sees this and decides to extract all of Holly's blood to get a cure from it. McClaren helps his daughter escape the hospital. Floyd sends his militia after them and they kill McClaren's poor old buddy Frank, before our heroes travel to...the magic Native Americans to find out what to do about this virus.
Oh, and Floyd has managed to update his website...blaming the government for the virus to arouse suspicion, while also planning to release more of it elsewhere and spread it through the country to....
Okay, time out. I have now seen this movie three times and I still don't know what he means to achieve by this. Like, overthrow the federal government, blame the government....it's real unclear. Anyways, the cure for the virus is revealed.
It's...a special flower the Native Americans grow that's brewed into tea that our hero's daughter drinks. Yes. Really. Floyd's men capture our heroes and then Floyd has McClaren brought to him where he serves him a glass of merlot. Floyd dismisses his men (!?) and tries to win McClaren to his side. Remember btw that our hero is basically the God Of Athletics made flesh and Floyd looks like his heart would explode if he tried so much as a light jog.
And in a scene that's not remotely anticlimactic, our hero finishes his glass of merlot, snaps the glass off and rams the stem through Floyd's head, proving that the human skull's kryptonite is a small stick of glass. The Natives distribute the flowers, and everyone goes home happy.
So, redeeming qualities?
Okay, for all of this, there is a bit to discuss here with Floyd. His high-minded rhetoric seems to reveal he believes he's standing up to a tyrannical federal government, orders his men to stand down as not to throw their lives away, seems to respect the Founding Fathers...he's ultimately a fraud and hypocrite. Floyd loves being in control, hates the government for the reason it's above him and his men are expendable to him while he has them stand down to make sure they can bail him out later.
Everything he does besides this is to save himself from the brilliant plan of "let's implant a deadly virus into myself that I cannot possibly know will be affected by this antitoxin, great idea!" Great job, Floyd. Given he made the very bad choice to inject it into his veins, I don't quite see this, or trying to spread it even further as mitigating.
Once again, though, and I stress, I cannot figure out what this freaking plan IS. Like, he's trying to grab power, take over, but the plot holes here are ridiculous. He's the only villain in the film besides his right-hand man Pogue. Militiaman, master sniper, lawyer, poison expert, medical blood work expert (?!?!?)....Pogue is far more fit than his out of shape boss, and the only man capable of challenging McClaren, which is why their epic fight consists of McClaren holding him at gunpoint and knocking him out with a single punch.
And of course, the evil GOVERNMENT...whose crimes are never really spelled out for us, but we know theyr'e bad because Steven Seagal glares a lot at government officials and says he's done working for THEM.
Nah, seriously, though, Floyd is a keeper. I can't see a reason not to keep a guy who infects a whole town with a deadly, painful virus and plans to spread it further just s a power grab no matter how bad a villain he may be.
Caesar
Floyd sounds like a handy, and hilariously Narm-tastic, baddie.
WHAT A WONDERFUL DAY!
Ragyo Kiryuin has to up there as one of the worst female CMs, I can't think of anyone off the bat who's worse.
Oh, I've had plenty of female candidates myself. Sedessa, Rita, Mona, Lamprey, the Squid Queen...