During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
RIP Toriyama
Alrighty, time for the first candidate in a collab between myself and Lighty. With great thanks to him for pointing me in the direction of this one, I present the first of three villains we will be discussing from one franchise.
What's the work?
Gabriel Knight is a trilogy of point and click adventure games detailing the adventures of a N'Awlins (That's New Orleans for you cultered folk) author named Gabriel Knight (Voiced by everyone's favorite British VA, Tim Curry) as he gets caught up in various freaky escapades alongside his assistant, Grace.
Now, in the first game of the series, Sins of the Fathers, Gabriel goes from investigating a series of bizarre serial killings known as the Voodoo Murders, to learning he is actually a member of an ancient bloodline of heroic individuals known as "Schattenjaegers" sworn to protect Earth from all kinds of demonic, magical, and supernatural forces, and discovers that the Voodoo Murders can all be traced back to the Big Bad of the game, the ancient spirit Tetelo.
Of course, behind every evil spirit....thingy, there's a vicious, depraved fanatic (At least that's what my local gypsy tells me).
Who is he?
Dr. John is The Dragon and The Heavy of the game. Serving as the Dragon-in-Chief to Tetelo, John is directly responsible for most of the crimes in this first game.
What has he done?
John, at some point, allied with Tetelo to create the Gedde cult, a Voodoo cult that worships destruction and death itself. John then began organizing the vicious serial killing of descendants of the ones who cursed Tetelo to be a spirit, and always finishes the murders off by ripping out the victim's heart, which they would later use in sacrifices to the gods they worship.
By the time of the seventh of these killings, dubbed the "Voodoo murders" by the general public, John realizes that amateur author Gabriel Knight has been investigating the killings, and begins stalking the man, eventually trying to murder him explicitly against Malia, Tetelo's descendant whom she possesses, orders.
Throughout the game, John has anyone who could expose the cult, from detectives to history buffs, ruthlessly murdered to cover his tracks.
Near the end of the game, Gabriel infiltrates John and Tetelo's headquarters, a temple-like building where they perform their sacrifices, and Gabriel stumbles across some truly horrifying rooms, such as one with even more murder victims, some of whom have had their faces and limbs removed. John himself stays in a room coated in blood, with piles of skulls in corners and he himself often bathes in blood while performing rituals.
In the end, John kidnaps Grace, Gabriel's Hyper-Competent Sidekick assistant, and plans to rip out her heart during a huge Gedde cult gathering, however Gabriel, alongside his detective buddy Mosley (Voiced by the ever-excellent Mark Hamill), sneak into the sacrificial ceremony, and Mosley manages to gun down John just as he prepares to kill Grace, leaving Gabriel free to take down Tetela herself.
Freudian Excuse or other redeeming features?
None. He's somewhat amicable in his public identity of a museum curator, but this is just a mask he wears to hide into suspicion. His true personality is that of a fanatical, homicidal thug.
And his relationship with Tetela/Malia is never detailed or expanded upon, BTW. John never shows any real care for his "master", having no real interactions with her beyond when they are killing together.
In the end, John is just a fanatical worshipper of a death god who serves Tetelo because of her dark spirit powers.
Heinousness?
Of the three Keeps we'll be discussing, I'd say John is actually the least heinous of the three, HOWEVER, this easily boils down to the fact that John is literally just a dude. Nothing more.
The next two Keeps? Supernatural beings with powers and influence that triples John's, easily explaining them outdoing him in wicked acts.
Even with that in mind, though? John still handily stands out as a pure sociopath who butchers innocents, rips out their hearts and limbs, then uses them in black magic rituals to make the cult more powerful. And that's not even getting into what the heck is going on with his room and the man himself prancing around covered in blood.....
Final Verdict?
I'd say Keep him.
edited 27th Feb '17 11:12:09 PM by Ravok
Tonight I dine on monkey soup.
Yes to John.
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
john, appolyon and bahm
edited 28th Feb '17 12:58:47 AM by Mediawatcher
Bohm, Apollyon and Dr John.
Apollyon reminds me a little of Drago Bluvist: Both have Freudian Excuses that are terrible and understandable, but subvert them with just how far they go, as well as leaving their past behind to wallow in more evil.
I was thinking about the Yakuza game series.... and SOMEONE, surely, has to count from them! I actually have two people from Yakuza 4 I would want to propose, but I've only played 4 and don't want to propose them only for the heinous standard to screw me over years from now by someone who's played all the games, if they were accepted, that is.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
- Capshaw.
- Bohm I guess. Huh, I didn't realize the series had much of a plot.
- Apollyon. There are numerous other female big bads who count (Nicole Horne, anyone?).
- Dr. John
Messenger from another dimension.
Yes to Bohm, Apollyon, and John.
Also, For Honor sounds amazing, I am glad I bought it yesterday actually. Can't wait to play it when I go home from college.
Welcome to the world of greatest media!
Bohm and Apollyon
Bohm Apollyon Dr. John.
The Unknown Unknown
Bohm, Apollyon and Dr John.
Apollyon sounds really cool.
A cruel, sick joke is still a joke, and sometimes all you can do is laugh.
Wild Child
Dr. John.
Should Prometheus be removed from the list, in light of his recent down-votes?
Why so serious?
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
I thought a request was already put in to cut him?
Dr. John.
edited 28th Feb '17 7:55:02 AM by Tyk5919
I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
If Promethus hasn't already been cut, someone file the request.
Alright, time for my next post. Here's another from our good man Garth Ennis, all. Specifically, this comes from Stitched. Ennis left after the first seven arc to leave the rest of the comic to be written by his co-writer Mike Wolfer. The candidate, however, comes from when Ennis was co-writing, so let's let loose the dogs of war.
What's the setting?
In an ill-fated mission into Afghanistan, the American team Idaho 6 crashes their helicopter in an attempt to rescue a stranded British SAS team. With two killed in the crash and another, Lt. Pruitt, with a severely injured leg, the survivors make their way through Afghanistan to try and find some hope of rescue, smack dab in the middle of Taliban territory. However, it turns out the Taliban is the least they have to worry about... The team stumbles across a brutal massacre of Taliban at the hands of bizarre, undead beings called the Stitched – invulnerable zombies with every orifice of theirs stitched close – commanded by strange hooded men with control the Stitched through tins filled with pebbles. There's something just as depraved the team's landed in, as well... a human trafficking organization that's allied with the cult controlling the Stitched. The leader of this trafficking ring, named Emad Homayoun, is our candidate today.
Who is Homayoun? What has he done?
Homayoun is the Pakistani businessman who leads the traffickers and who struck a deal with the dark, generations-old cult to begin with. Now, as expected, Homayoun dabbles in an especially bad breed of business – taking young women and children, both boys and girls, to be bought and turned into sex slaves around the entire country (and given a quip that he's got contacts worldwide, all over the world) but Homayoun saw a rather vile opportunity arise when seeing the Stitched in action. Homayoun allied with the cult and to this remains completely compliant with exactly how the Stitched are made... one of his old followers, Nigel (who's taken hostage by the American team after being the sole survivor of one of the Stitched's attacks on the Taliban) details how Homayoun brought him and a few others to watch how the Stitched are created.
A grown man is stripped down, tied back, and tortured as a black film is poured into every orifice of his. The cult then sews every single orifice closed and allows the black film to kill the body... this has the side effect of trapping the man's soul in his own body, leaving him in a horrific state of undeath during which the soul is still completely aware, while the man's body is converted into another Stitched. Homayoun remains entirely compliant with these operations and uses the Stitched as shock soldiers for his organization, regularly using them to massacre entire villages. Whatever survivors there are are taken by his organization – the women and children to be trafficked, and the men to be turned into more Stitches. A lot end up claimed by this process... Nigel alone has a camera filled with over two-hundred pictures of woman and children and the Stitched are innumerable. We also see what happens to those who don't fit Homayoun's qualifications for trafficking; when the Stitched come across a boy who's lame and unable to walk, they just tear him to bloody pieces. All other obstacles, of any sort, are ripped apart.
The American team comes across the aftermath of a Taliban massacre, who were wiped out by the Stitched due to fact they came a little too close to the operation. Twiggy, one of the members of Idaho 6, tells the others about Homayoun's affairs and Nigel further details the nature of the Stitched and this all prompts the team – now joined by the SAS team – to take down the operation. Homayoun, in the meanwhile, talks with one of his followers about recent business. Homayoun's cleared out enough of the region that he's soon intending to move to even further villages. The American team invades and finds a gathering of women and children in a building Homayoun's intending to traffic. Shortly after this, chaos ensues and an all-out fight explodes. Twiggy personally invades the building Homayoun's in, but Homayoun ambushes and mortally stabs her. Homayoun makes a misogynistic remarks as Twiggy lays bleeding out and makes a callous comment that if he wasn't in such a rush, he'd show her what a woman is “really” for... a not-so-subtle rape threat. Twiggy doesn't take that lying down, though; literally holding in her own guts, Twiggy severs Homayoun's fingers with a sickle and rushes him. Twiggy dies in the process, but she doesn't die in vain; when the team comes across the building, what remains of Homayoun is in a mangled, bloody heap by the door. The captives are freed and the traffickers are taken down.
The Stitches, however, remain.
Any mitigating factors?
Clear no there. No redeeming factors, no heinousness factors, no excuse, nada. Homayoun's as clear a keeper as they come, actually.
Conclusion?
Ultimately, Homayoun's a human trafficker who's sending countless women and children to become sex slaves, is compliant and even provides for the cult's method of creating Stitched – horrifically torturing and killing the body and locking the soul into an And I Must Scream fate – and uses said Stitched to wipe out entire villages. Another very, very easy keeper. I may have another candidate from this comic... a heavy, heavy emphasis on the “may” though. Me and Lighty have significant reservations yet.
Thoughts?
edited 28th Feb '17 9:46:21 PM by Scraggle
Speaking of cuts... I feel kind of awkward since I arguably shoved her at you in the first place, but I guess Sol Seraph will have to go. The author put up a sequel series to the Blooming Moon Chronicles which is another million-plus words I have yet to get to, but googling for any more mentions of her was easy enough... she comes back from the void as some kind of lich (apparently a small part of a much bigger threat) and by and large is still a heinous bitch, but Fluttershy's insistence on loving those who would hurt her finally gets through to her:
It clattered to the ground, and Fluttershy began to smile before her eyes widened slightly as Sol Seraph began to smolder. The Phooka began to step forward, but Sol Seraph held a hoof out, shaking her head as she said quietly: “Only the strongest survive in the Void. Those with wills of iron. My will is broken: I... I have no desire to kill you.”
She fell silent for a moment, then she gave a brief laugh as she lowered her head and murmured: “My existence was based around fighting, around killing... around nothing else. And for the briefest moment, you made me feel as if... I had missed something important in life. As if I had... failed, somewhere important. And I do not entirely understand why or how. I only know that for a moment, I felt... I felt an emotion I had not felt since Ardor.”
Sol Seraph rose her head, saying quietly: “I am beyond redemption. I do not care. Redemption is a petty reason to do anything. And I am... bitterly amused that perhaps the answer to taking away all of Loki's power is... this childish, simple idea, of 'fixing' us. We are all broken. That is our greatest weakness and our greatest strength. We are irrefutably broken.”
Sol Seraph quieted, then she turned and strode away, and Fluttershy stumbled after her mother, following her out as tears rolled down her cheeks, asking: “Isn't there anything I can do? Mother, I-”
“It is fine.” Sol Seraph said fearlessly, as energy steamed off her body, as she began to grow translucent as she stepped outside of the humble house and onto the dirt highway. She gazed over pretty farmland and towards the comfortably village in the distance, then allowed her eyes to rove upward, looking at the blue skies, for the first time seeing the world that she lived in, as she asked quietly: “Did all of this... always exist?”
“Yes, Mother. This is the world.” Fluttershy answered, as she strode up beside the Voidborn and rubbed her wrist across her eyes, before she gave a trembling smile as Sol Seraph frowned at her.
And then the Voidborn silently rose a hoof and stroked the Phooka's cheek, before she looked at the tears that clung to her, that glimmered on her hoof. She turned her hoof back and forth, studying the shining pearls from every angle, before she asked almost curiously: “Why are you crying?” “Because I love you, and I feel like we just connected, for the first time.” Fluttershy said, and Sol Seraph looked at her, then she rose her hoof to her mouth, tasting her daughter's tears, before she gave the smallest, the briefest of smiles.
“I did love you.” Sol Seraph said, and then she paused for a moment before she added quietly: “You are your father's daughter. You are just like him. I am glad. I am glad that I failed to stomp that out of you. I am glad that you are stronger than I ever was.”
Sol Seraph halted, then she looked slowly up at the sun as her body began to crack, her spirit flowing out of her with every breath, but a relieved smile spreading across her face as she murmured: “Yes. This is the way it was always meant to be. I never imagined it would be like this, though...”
Sol Seraph smiled, then she looked over at her daughter as Fluttershy trembled, before the Phooka leaned over and hugged her tightly. And daughter held tightly on to her mother, until Sol Seraph was no more.
Cut Sol Seraph and yes to Homayoun
to General Heinz Brohm, Apollyon, Dr. John, and Emad Homayoun.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Stitched guy. I took care of Prometheus.
edited 28th Feb '17 8:38:28 AM by ACW
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
I know it's way too early to discuss anyone from Designated Survivor yet, but I think it's very likely whoever the Big Bad is will qualify. I'm basing this just on what has aired so far. It could turn out that they have a very good reason for what they're doing. Or if much like in Revenge, it's a group of people doing the most horrible things and no one is made to stand out.
This is all just speculation, I'm not trying to insinuate whether this is the direction they're gonna go because I don't know what is gonna happen and I am being up front about that.
Axe off Seraph. Future, if you're interested in reserving discussion for Designated Survivor, go ahead, but otherwise please stop bringing random topics to the table that have nothing to do with anything. If there's nobody in Designated Survivor worth talking about yet, there's no need to talk about it.
Oh yes, one more thing... wasn't there some discussion a bit back to cut Hatagai from Bokurano? His entry was struck from the YMMV page, it seems, but his entry is still on Anime & Manga. I can't recall any support for his staying and the clause to cut him (i.e. failing the heinous standard, especially when the main character is apparently raping someone) seemed a valid one. Could someone take care of him alongside Sol Seraph?
edited 28th Feb '17 9:10:30 AM by Scraggle
Writeup time:
- At Close Range: Bradford "Big Bad" Sr. starts the film by taking in his son Brad Jr. It is soon revealed Big Brad runs a criminal gang and Brad Sr. is not only a thief, but a murderer as well. Brad Jr sees him drown a member for talking to police and when Brad Jr and his friends are arrested, the police hold Brad Jr without bail to get him to give up his father. As a warning, Brad Sr rapes his son's girlfriend, and when a grand jury subpoena i issued, kills Brad Jr's friends and even kills Tommy, his son's brother who may or may not be his son after Tommy pleads for his life. Putting a hit out on his own son, Brad Jr is shot and his girlfriend Terry killed before Brad Jr finally confronts his father before testifying against him and seeing him sent to prison A remorseless sociopath, Big Brad stops at nothing to keep himself out of trouble, no matter who he has to hurt or kill.
- Nioh: Edward Kelley functions as the villain for most of the game. A ruthless sorcerer seeking to gather the mystical energy Amrita for his masters, Kelley kidnaps the hero William's guardian spirit Saoirse and uses her to locate Japan where he makes an already bloody Civil War even worse. Lending his aid to the Toyotomi forces, Kelley also increases the presence of monstrous Oni and Yokai and attempts to undo a seal to allow monsters to ravage all of Kyoto. After being foiled, Kelley uses his magic at the Battle of Sekigahara to painfully fuse 300 soldiers into a new monstrosity and backstabs the Toyotomi army leader Ishida Mitsunari to use him to buy time while Kelley attempts to raise Oda Nobunaga, Japan's most fearsome warlord, from the dad and have him plunge the nation into a new era of war. While a servant of the English mystic John Dee, Kelley is ruthless, cruel and utterly delights in the slaughter he initiates.
- Sniper Elite IV: The elusive General Heinz Bohm, the Butcher of Bologna, ravages the Italian countryside under his control. Killing almost indiscriminately, Bohm also disguises himself as an informant named Dorfmann and gives the Partisans information that leads to the deaths of his own soldiers so he can lure them into a trap, initiating a massacre that kills many of them while he takes their leader, a woman named Angel, captive. Working on a new Nazi superweapon with slave labor, Bohm plans to attack and annihilate the entire Allied fleet closing in on Europe, with intentions to kill General Eisenhower and cripple the US involvement in the war. When finally revealing himself to the heroic sniper Karl Fairburne, Bohm reveals his intent to torture Angel and force Karl to watch, delighting in how he can either be a man "or a monster" when the situation calls for it.
- Metal Wolf Chaos: The evil vice president Richard Hawk ousts the heroic Michael Wilson from office, proceeding to turn the US into a military dictatorship under his control. Using prisoners of war as shields, Richard proceeds to order them gunned down while also attacking American cities in an attempt to kill Michael, now piloting the mechanical armor known as Metal Wolf. Richard reinstitutes slave labor, selling people in Miami into white slavery, and attempts to frame Metal Wolf by using poison gas to wipe out Chicago before also using a giant mech to try to wipe out New York. When Michael defeats him Richard attempts to flee to space where he has prepared a superweapon to wipe out all of the United States out of spite at his loss.
to Ronald Capshaw, General Heinz Bohm, Apollyon, Richard Hawk, Doctor John, and Homayoun.
To Emad.
edited 28th Feb '17 11:23:25 AM by PolarPhantom
You know these jokes aren't cute, funny or productive, right?
edited 28th Feb '17 9:21:37 AM by Lightysnake
Didn't I just get done saying a few pages ago these sorts of potshots aren't welcome?
I'll yea Capshaw, but I'm getting a little wary on how many more characters can qualify from this series.