During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
I've been meaning to do an effort post for Tyranny's Voices of Nerat, if that's okay with everyone.
If Exister's fine with it, I'm good (he has it reserved).
I actually have a few updated effortposts coming: Shinnok from MK, Krazka One-Eye from The Grim Company, Zorzal Caesar from Gate, and Valkorion/Vitiate from Old Republic
@ACW, Zamasu being Goku Black should be spoiler tagged.
Wild Child
I've actually engaged in conversations with the ban-evader off-site. S/he's...not the most reasonable when it comes to differing opinions.
Anyways, I support cutting Clark Nelson. Doesn't sound quite heinous enough.
Why so serious?
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to Tiago Baenre.
to Tiago Baenre.
RIP Toriyama
Late 'Yes' votes for the Commandant and Tiego.
Anywho, Speaking of DC Comics' Monsters and entries that need cutting, this one needs to go ASAP.
- The Authority: Seth Cowie is a sadistic (implied) child rapist who calls himself the "Six Billion Dollar Bastard". Tired of the Authority's interference in their affairs and afraid of their influence on the world (particularly after the Doctor ruined two presidential candidates by causing them to make out in public), a coalition of interests decided to develop a living weapon capable of defeating the Authority. To this end, they either acquired or kidnapped Seth, an skinny, ignorant, and unambitious hillbilly with an apparent history of being sexually abused by his uncles, transformed him into a cybernetically-enhanced monstrosity, then set him loose inside the Carrier. Armed with over 1,000 post-human abilities, Seth very quickly neutralized all of the Authority, with the sole exception of the Midnighter and Jenny Quantum, who managed to steal a jet and crash it into the side of the Carrier. Despite this, Seth ripped the Carrier from its orbit and scuttled it in Antarctica. Convinced that Midnighter and Quantum were dead, the coalition allowed Seth to retire to a residence within the White House with a harem of prepubescent girls. The surviving Authority members, meanwhile, were all dumped into degrading new lives while the team was replaced by a new team approved by the seven richest governments on Earth. Unbeknownst to all at the time, Seth's scuttling of the Carrier tore a hole in the Bleed.
As I said, this needs to be removed. Not only is it an unapproved entry (Not even on the comic's YMMV) that barely focuses on the character's crimes, but the character himself doesn't count.
Having (unfortunately) read The Authority a while back (Realizing only recently that THE Mark Millar was the one who wrote it has only increased my animosity toward the stooge), I can safely say Seth's an easy Non-Keep.
I can imagine, in the dark, sick places Millar goes for ideas, what he envisioned Seth as: A nightmarish, psychopathic, and nigh-unstoppable pedophilic rapist whose mere presence in the story shows that, regardless of how big of a bunch of Jerkass Nominal Heroes the Authority are, they are ultimately on the side of good when up against utter MONSTERS like Seth.
....Unfortunately, what writers envision can't always be what writers get into publication. Instead of Seth being....well, the above, he is instead a stupid, vulgar, hillbilly hick who is literally every racist, sexist, repulsive personality trait you can fit into a character, with no menace or actual actions to back up how EVIL the character supposedly is, choosing instead to have him simply speak and taunt like what an immature teenager would consider "edgy" (Millar's trademark style, though you already knew that).
Seth, as you can probably gather from the "write-up", has very few crimes. He curb stomps the Authority, indirectly tears open a hole in the "Bleed", some stupid wormhole that could wipe out a bunch of people, and supposedly rapes a bunch of preteen girls. He also attempts to kill a superpowered 3-year-old or something.
But D'oh, look at that. Seth's "harem" and pedophilic tendencies are offhandedly mentioned by some of the characters, then moved on from. Nothing is even CLOSE to being onscreen, none of the characters are shown to be particularly horrified by it, and it isn't a focused-upon part of Seth's character.
Oh, and he's also basically confirmed to have been sexually abused by his uncles as a child (Says so right there in the write-up....whoever made said write-up has obviously never heard of "credible Freudian Excuse"), and while he makes disgusting jokes about how he "enjoyed it", it's still....sexual abuse. The fact that he gets "beaten" by getting turned into a group of chickens, who are then heavily implied to get raped to death by the same uncles who molested him....doesn't help his case.
And neither does the fact that there is a slight possibility that the experiments that turned him into the freak he is in the present could have mentally jacked him up even more so than he might have already been.
Seth is an utter failure of a character, a failure of an interesting, or even particularly threatening, villain, and perhaps most embarrassing, he fails even as a credible Hate Sink, as the story never focuses on his crimes long enough to get the audience, or even in-universe characters, affected by them, making his whole character's reason for existing IMO (To make the Authority look not AS bad as they are) completely nonexistent.
Ergo, I motion to cut him from the page with extreme prejudice, and may I never have to mention the name "Mark Millar" on this thread again until I make an attempt to get Troy Hicks from ''The Unfunnies'' cut....
Tonight I dine on monkey soup.
Yeah, Seth's writeup is... godawful, for starters. Cut him. Cut Clark too, please. Hoping to get Annihilation!Shinnok up quite soon now and I've a few others I've got on the backburner I'll get to eventually (Wraith of the old show Roswell Conspiracies come to mind... I'll get to that one in due time).
And yes, all that needs to be said about Witch is that she's unreasonable and there is no reason to talk to her, confront her, or give her anything she wants with this trope. Any other socks should be banned on the spot.
edited 12th Dec '16 12:06:44 PM by Scraggle
Cut Seth.
Okay, so considering Zathir only got two down votes (one of which was given zero explanation even when asked and the other of which was just 'because it's MLP' which we all decided didn't count) and everyone else up voted, what do we do now with that?
I recently wrote a possible rewrite for Eric Qualen from Cliffhanger: See if it may fix.
- Eric Qualen is an ex-military agent turned into an heartless international terrorist. In the movie's beginning he tries to steal $100 million dollars leading to the death of three agents and one pilot. When one of his men gets wounded by a gunshot Qualen simply throws him out of the plane. After he loses the three cases full of money and his plane crashes, Qualen kidnaps the mountain guides Gabe Walker and his friend Hal Tucker so they can help him find the cases, outright stating he intends to kill themonce they will be no longer needed. During the quest, Qualen's actions cause the death of anyone unfortunate to get in his way. Qualen later kills his pilot and lover, informing her that true love is sacrifice, so he can be the only one who can fly him and his men off the mountains. At the climax he takes Gabe's girlfriend hostage and threatens to drop her to her death if Gabe won't give him the last case.
Wild Child
Cut Seth. And speaking of DC, is anyone planning on giving New 52!Mongul a re-write?
Why so serious?
@Irrose: I'd originally planned on doing a Scarlet Chorus play through to make sure Voices counted since Lore Deluxe has already finished the Disfavored play through. Unfortunately I haven't had much time to work on that, and I probably won't have it finished in a timely fashion. I apologize for not finishing it yet. I feel bad about sitting on this so long. Irrose, if either you or Lore Deluxe want to do the effort post or work together on it, I'm completely fine with it. Once again, sorry about not getting it done on time.
@Ravok: I agree with cutting Seth. He sounds like a pretty badly failed attempt to try to invoke a Hate Sink.
@ACW: I saw the new version of the Commandant write-up and it looks good to me, thank you.
edited 12th Dec '16 12:35:03 PM by OccasionalExister
Now, first off:
With The Grim Company having concluded, I'll do an expanded, full effortpost on the previous keeper of the series, Krazka One-Eye, charmingly later known by his appellation The Butcher King.
What Is The Work?
The world is mostly divided into a series of lands ruled by mages. Centuries past, the Magelords swore themselves into a pact and killed the Gods themselves, taking their essence within their own beings, giving them immortality and great power. At the start of the series, the most powerful Magelord of all, Salazar, acts against his rival Marius by literally dropping an ocean upon his city, throwing the balance of power out of whack. The series proceeds to follow a group of unlikely heroes: Davarus Cole, legend in his own mind; an arrogant young man raised to believe he's a special hero, but yet might hold the best chance of destroying Salazar.
Sasha, daughter of Davarus's mentor and his love-interest (or so he'd like to think)
Brodar Kayne, Cool Old Guy and once the greatest warrior of the north, known as Sword of the North, with more regrets then he cares to think
And Eremul, a bitter, crippled mage missing his legs who rarely has anything go right.
But now...let's get to the villain of Kayne's story. The monstrous Krazka.
Who Is He?
once a young peasant boy of no account who was dumped into a cesspit and crawled his way out, Krazka has risen to become a mighty chieftain in his own right of the barbarian clans that occupy the High Fangs up north. The clans are ruled by a Magelord known as The Shaman, who despite being the weakest of his brethren, is still more than enough to keep the clans united in a rather brutal system.Before the series began, Krazka brutally raped Brodar Kayne's wife and sent her to be burned alive when Kayne defied the Shaman, while Kayne's son Magnar became the King of the High Fangs, second only to the Shaman in authority.
Krazka is a mountain of muscle and cruelty, wearing the pelt of the Highland Cat that took his eye. And he has grander ambitions than just being another chieftain...
What's He Done?
In his Establishing Character Moment, Krazka marches to deal with another chieftain who hasn't been sending in the necessary tribute to Krazka's area. The man, a formerly renowned warrior, is now skin and bones as a result of the horrible famine his people are enduring. Uncaring, Krazka forces him into a duel and proceeds to roundly humiliate him in the battle. When the man is unable to stand against Krazka, Krazka 'motivates' him by slitting his wife's throat. When the chieftain attacks him furiously, he manages to damage Krazka's clothes...which pisses Krazka off because he liked that coat. He says he might have been merciful and ended it quick, but as a result of that? He has the chieftain sent to be burned alive for 'defiance.' Oh, and he allows the guy's young kids to be eaten by wild beasts. He then orders everyone living in the settlement put to the sword.
Krazka soon makes his move: king Magnar Kayne is overthrown and Krazka takes his place as the king of the High Fangs, revealing that he holds a sword made of a material called Abyssium which makes magic all but useless against him. Krazka brutally subjugates his own people, massacring those who give even a hint of resistance. It is then revealed Krazka has gone even further...he's allied with an ancient demon known as The Herald, who is providing him with demonic troops for his army. Unleashing them, Krazka's army becomes infamous for its savagery and the horrible war crimes as the demons do not take prisoners or differentiate between friend or foe. Oh, and the way Krazka purchases the Herald's loyalty? He has it given children as 'tribute' regularly for it to eat. In fact, he forces Magnar's lover, an ambitious sorceress, to deliver the children to the Herald herself. (she does so, having no choice, but as a mercy uses her magic to put the children into a deep sleep before the Herald arrives to carry them off).
Magnar is kept in a cage, regularly tortured by Krazka who despises him for being king instead of him at one point and also because Krazka hates Magnar's father for being considered the greatest warrior of the north way back then (because nobody can be better than Krazka, dammit). Krazka alo enslaves the sorceresses, forcing them to participate in the atrocities his army commits, while also subjecting them to torture and rape. In the third and final book, it's revealed Krazka has also taken to raping boys, waking up with one in his bed...and it's then revealed that he's also slit the boy's throat when he was done. When one of his men expresses disapproval, Krazka sneers that "flesh is flesh" and men and women alike exist to be used and thrown away by him. Oh, and it turns out the kid he murdered was the lead sorceress, Rana's nephew, who's frantically searching for him. Krazka cheerfully informs her that he hopes the boy 'turns up safe and sound.'
Continuing his campaigns, Krazka's city is attacked by the good guys who've broken through his gate. He orders his enslaved sorceresses to burn down the gate the attackers are fighting at. A sorceress named Polga refuses to kill their own people and Krazka beheads her, saying if his forces are outnumbered two one "we'll kill twice as many of them as our own". He then orders the other sorceresses to get on it or he'll kill them as well.
Krazka's army is eventually defeated and the demons decide to betray him. The Herald pulls its forces out, informing Krazka that they never really had an alliance and he was only ever a pawn. Escaping and leaving his own men to die, Krazka is tracked down by Kayne who finally engages Krazka. Kayne disarms Krazka of his abyssium sword, bu before the fight can be finished, Rana seizes her chance to magically paralyze Krazka and use another spell to burn him alive, making him feel every moment of it with an excellent final line: "You will hurt no more nnocents. Terrorize no more of my sisters. I am not a cruel woman, but this is what you deserve. On behalf of Yllandris. On behalf of Polga. On behalf of my nephew and all the victims of your wickedness, may you burn forevermore."
And so ends the Butcher King.
Mitigating factors?
Krazka only ever expresses any like of others when they show themselves to be remorseless, greedy killers, and this is entirely conditional on being useful to him. He betrays people at the drop of a hat. He has something of a backstory in that his mother abandoned him as a child and he had to fight and scrape to become a warrior, but this does not even begin to excuse what he's done and isn't presented as a valid excuse in any way, shape or form.
Now, he's a dupe for the Herald, but he walked right into that deal with eye wide open. He uses the demons to massacre countless innocent people and sacrifices children so the Herald can eat them. Nothing redeeming here. He just never considered in his ego that the Herald only saw him as meat.
Heinous Standard?
High. The series opens with like half a million people being killed by Salazar (who actually had a good reason)...besides that, we have the cruelties of the Magelords (Salazar and the White Lady, the second most powerful, run rather brutally autocratic regimes with some other nastiness, but neither count; the White Lady repents of everything she's done and reconciles with her former husband and Salazar loves his dead daughter and wants to save humanity as a whole), the demons want to come and make humanity into meat, and an ancient race known as the Fehd has been judging humanity and is deciding to exterminate them or not due to throwing out the world's balance by destroying the Gods (one of the Fehd, General Saverian, may be a subject of an EP in the future).
Krazka is the lowest on the totem-pole, yet his atrocities have a far more personal flavor and stack up with the worst of them. He's only hampered by his relative lack of standing and power in the world and he is ridiculously cruel and sadistic, committing every crime he can manage. He's a Serial Rapist, Serial Killer, has the blood of countless innocents on his hands, loves Cold-Blooded Torture and is quite honestly the most despicable human villain around and easily one of the worst in modern fantasy I've read.
Furthermore, there's a moment when he realizes that he's losing and remarks "everything I've lied, raped and murdered for is slipping through my fingers." One of his men comments "you'd have lied, raped and murdered anyways" which Krazka has to acknowledge as true "but I was feeling maudlin."
That's the update with the series finished. I'll provide a last, updated writeup after Shinnok's done.
edited 12th Dec '16 12:38:29 PM by Lightysnake
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Cool. So the Sadist pothole works?
And yeah, cut Seth, if the raping is only Offscreen. Krazka. The series worth reading? I'm kinda tempted to now (also to see if the Herald qualifies...he certainty seems nasty enough as well).
edited 12th Dec '16 12:49:32 PM by ACW
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Krazka.
![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
Seth.
edited 12th Dec '16 12:58:29 PM by MiraiYuji
Yes to Krazka, no to Seth.
Yeah. Grim Company is very worth a read
Krazka. I'll draft a Nerat effort post within a couple of hours.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
It's these, correct?
Tiago and Krazka.
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
Krazka.
@Ambar: Well, I still got two more trilogies from Dragons of Requiem to read, so there's that. Plus I snagged some of the 24 novels just for fun. Haven't seen anyone who might count, but if I do I'll bring up anyone who might qualify.
@Godzillawolf: Now you have to do the writeup. Basically you summarize who the villain is and all of his/her/its most notorious crimes in a paragraph under 300 words.
I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
to Krazka One-Eye.
I have to admit I kind of love the fact he's called "The Butcher King", with a name like that kind of have to count to live up to it.
Wild Child
The Butcher King.
How does this week's batch
edited 12th Dec '16 11:43:09 AM by ACW
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts