Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

Agreed, and that's something I think all of us—me included—need to get better at dealing with. After all, if we let a character's reputation within pop culture or the fandom determine their status Katejina Loos would still be up.

Again, no problem with him staying up, so long as the reasons being mooted aren't "It's Joffrey."

I'm leaning more towards cutting Show!Joffrey now based on Exister's points. Though since I never watched the show nor read the books, I don't really care if he stays or goes.

edited 19th Sep '16 9:58:05 PM by AustinDR

I've given my reasons why I disagree, and I think it's fair to assert this:

At no point does Joffrey mentioned, reminisce or...well...show any remorse the second Robert is dead. The only other time he brings him up is to puff himself up and put down Tywin, whose caution he detests. As soon as Robert's dead, he moved on to enjoying himself as King with not the barest hint of tears or grief. I believe the character to still be a keep.

on Show!Joffrey with this new information(as in he should be cut).

Well, I just finished watching Rampage 3, and I've got good news and bad news. The good news is that Bill finally gets his just deserts, the bad news is that he no longer qualifies. The film reveals that after the second film, Bill's father committed suicide, and Bill got a girlfriend and had a son with her. It's made clear that Bill loved his girlfriend and infant son, and he even sent them off so they wouldn't get hurt before enacting his plan to kill the president, vice president, and secretary of defense. Bill succeeded, and the FBI and SWAT came after him. At the climax, he manages to kill all but one cop, who is left injured. However, Bill is shot several times, and while his armor reduces the damage, he ends up bleeding to death. The film ends with a bunch of terrorists working to carry on Bill's work, with people being killed left and right, and the film ends with the implication that America will be torn apart by these terrorists.

Cut Bill.

Part of me wants to watch Rampage, but it's an Use Bill franchise...

New proposal, from 22 Bullets.

Who's the candidate?

Pascal Vasetto, a brutal Professional Killer and The Dragon to Tony Zacchia.

What does he do?

The first scene of the film is Pascal leading a group of Hired Guns to bump off Charly. They shoot him 22 times, though somehow he survives. They also shoot his dog.

Later, he gets ahold of Karim, a guy who snitched on the Zacchio gang for Charly. One of his goons beats the hell out of the poor sap before Pascal stops him. He then shows Karim his friend who sold him out, before shooting the friend in the head. He then cuts Karim's finger off as a message to Charly, and feeds him to vicious dogs.

Pascal does nothing heinous for half the movie, but near the end, he's ordered to kill Charly's son, whom Zacchio had kidnapped earlier. He goes to where the boy is being held, and orders the guard there to help him with the murder. The guard objects, and Pascal threatens him with a knife. He's knocked out for a second, but stabs the guard to death before taking the boy. However, Charly rescues his son and bashes Pascal's head in.

Heinousness?

He's the only villain who goes beyond standard mob boss behaviour.

Mitigating factors?

He claims to hate secondhand smoke because it harms his men, but murdering one of his men who refused to help him kill a child shows that that's a flimsy excuse for being a Control Freak.

Verdict?

edited 20th Sep '16 1:01:39 AM by DemonDuckofDoom

This is a different case. New information has been brought up. Also, I literally just proposed a new example.

Even a character who has killed a million people can be disqualified for something as minor as showing some kindness/and or sympathy to any one person. It isn't really that easy to get qualified, and it's VERY easy to get disqualified. Just look at Bill Wiliamson. Shot up his hometown, killed about a hundred people, murdered his best friend and framed him for the shooting, blew up a TV station and killed everyone inside, gave a little girl a gun telling her to go home and kill her parents and herself, killed the president, vice president, and secretary of defense, and murdered dozens of cops and FBI agents that came after him. However, because of loving his girlfriend and infant son, he can't count. I know it's frustrating, but that's just how this trope works. If you have any redeeming features at all, or ever show anyone any genuine sympathy or kindness, th at disqualifies you no matter what you have done.

• Abstaining on Joffrey.
• Roosevelt.
• Cut Bill ("Use Bill franchise"? Autocorrect DDD ).
• LEANING Pascal, but you said he was ORDERED to kill the kid?

For Dr Roosevelt. I remember being confused about his exact role in Abdullah's plot, but he (it?) still counts.

For Vasetto I think. Even if he was ordered to kill the kid, he probably wasn't told to kill one of his men and to have that guy eaten by dogs, was he? I watched the movie a long time ago (it's not everyday there's a movie in my hometown) and I don't remember much of it.

Abstaining for Joffrey. I agree with much of Ambar's points, but I should rewatch the episodes myself before giving a definite opinion.

edited 20th Sep '16 2:32:46 AM by Nithael

to Pascal Vasetto.

With Joffery it's shown that Margaery is stroking his ego which is shown to be pretty much the only thing that might get on his good side. And since Margaery was a master manipulator, that's just what she did to get on his good side. And while it was said before; the only time shows genuine interest in her is when Margaery is expressing interest in killing things. And that's mostly because she shows an interest in killing things.

When Margaery presented herself as a potential benevolent Queen, Joffery shows if anything confusion. While he speaks of her charity in a positive light, he speaks of it as it it where a strange alien concept. He is clearly baffled when Margaery stops to donate some toys and spend time with the children in an orphanage.

To me, this means Joffery had no interest in Margaery other than a new political marriage that he had to save face for like he did with Sansa earlier. When Margaery tried to manipulate him sexually, he shows no interest. She notices his only turn ons amount to inflicting pain on others, so that's what she used to stay on his good side; because now Joffery sees Margaery as a comparable mate if anything; in other words "A version of me that can bare me an heir".

Now this is just my opinion on love but when you genuinely love someone you love the person. Not the idea. Joffery clearly loves the idea of who he thinks Margaery is and that's only when she pretended to be a sadist. The concept of a charitable ruler, confuses him.

As for Robert, as Lighty said, he doesn't care of his death once he becomes King. Nor does he think much of Robert until A; he orders the massacre of Roberts bastards when he realizes how little he resembles his supposed father and B. when he tries to shame Tywin.

Even then in regards of Robert, he is just a pedestal that Joffery wants to live up to. In his youth Robert was quite the badass and Joffery knows of this and wishes to emulate what Robert was, albeit something he couldn't be due to being a dirty coward with entitlement issues, so he compensates with being a badass with being a sadist. This is quite the So Proud Of You Son Gut example but it's the same kind of example Ramsay had with Roose.

@68107

Well that was incredibly disrespectful to people who believe be should be cut. Especially doesn't help your case that you in no way try to counter the arguments for why Joffrey should be cut, you just say "he's an obvious keeper"and leave it at that.

To Bill.

Anymore on Cook Cook?

Tentative Pascal Vasetto. By the way, the movie sounds awesome, I gotta watch it.

As for Joffrey, well I don't think the Margaery thing is the issue. As I said, I am more concerned about his sadness over Robert's death but as A New Man said, I think he shed that redeeming quality when he became king. But I don't think going in circles is worth it. We either need to agree or disagree here. If he gets cut, what would bother me is that we allowed villains with more obvious redeeming qualities (Quentin Turnbull or Masked Man Machine come to mind).

Also, whether Joffrey gets cut or keep, we should add him to "Never Again" list.

Edit: Also, I don't mind cutting Bill. Never seen ''Rampage"" nor am I really interested (I hate Villain Protagonist trope generally).

edited 20th Sep '16 5:45:32 AM by emperors

A clear example of Even Bad Men Love Their Mamas who I would honestly pay money to get off the list. That said, I am no longer arguing for his exclusion; just using him as an example of a villain who got added despite ambiguity.

edited 20th Sep '16 5:46:56 AM by emperors

Yeah, I really don't buy that argument that Machine loves his mother.

By the rate this is going, Cook-Cook.

To him being cut? orbeing a CM?

Emperors...knock it off with Machine. It has been explained to you a lot of times how that's not an example of that other trope.

The cook Cook thing likewise needs to stop. Unlike Joffrey, no new evidence or argument was presented here.

edited 20th Sep '16 6:06:54 AM by Lightysnake

Pascal is one of those characters who follows orders, but adds his own little sadistic touches to them (like feeding Karim to dogs).

Joffrey: Okay, with Joffrey I can understand the moment of apparent sadness over his father's death potentially being a disqualifier, sure. If you want to discuss that, then I'm game.

But Marge? Haha, no. Nononononono. He never displays any actual affection for her. He just enjoys her stroking his ego. He never cares for her any more than an Evil Overlord cares for a yes-man. He enjoys her company... because her role is straight up providing him pleasure. He doesn't speak highly of her, or acts caring towards her, or considers her actual thoughts or feelings, or anything. She's a pleasure object to him. It just so happens that for once, the source of his pleasure isn't (directly) sadistic.

Dr. Roosevelt: In addition to everything else, there's another factor for his heinousness: Brau 1589, the world's first robot serial killer and generally thought of as a despicable Hannibal Lector-esque monster takes it upon himself to kill Roosevelt and knowingly dies in the process. Given Brau's In-Universe notoriety, it's definitely notable. Naturally, I'm for including him.

D'Arby: Never seen the anime or played the game, but in the manga he's played for laughs too. And it's not just that he's beaten, but he's not even taken seriously. He's a kind of character that, on paper, seems like he could legitimately qualify but is never played for the seriousness of Complete Monster-dom, putting it more as Fridge Horror than anything else. Maybe he's played straighter in the anime, but I dunno.

edited 20th Sep '16 6:17:20 AM by Larkmarn

There's also a webcomic example we sadly need to cut...I think enough time has elapsed

Also, I wanted to point out that we agreed to cut Ze Pequeno but he is still on the list.