During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Messenger from another dimension.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Yeah we know, we know.
Clearly we don't considering how much it's been openly violated.
Nobody say anything. Don't rejoice, don't curse, don't imply anything, just avoid the topic entirely until the two weeks pass. I am right bloody sick of seeing this rule treated casually by people who very well know it exists.
Yeah, sorry, Emperors, but that was entirely warranted given how much that rule has been broken.
Gonna second (third? fourth?) everything that's just been said. Surely we have other things we could talk about. How 'bout them Yankees?
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
King Tor I guess goes with Other Media under animation? I retract my objection; trying to kill everyone is bad enough, plus trying to kill an innocent kid.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Lizzid people!
I would think that it would go under Other Animation in Other Media.
The spring animes, are coming to an end, and a potential candidate would the Big Bad of Kabaneri Of The Iron Fortress.
He is a mass murderer who only cares about his revenge.
A character that I thought I had potential, was Lovepon (Mayoiga), unfortunately she wasn't heinous enough. And she failed to kill anyone, anyway.
edited 27th Jun '16 1:49:56 AM by dantecito
In the IP forum we're considering moving the current pic on Monster.Western Animation to Predators Are Mean. I'm leaving a notice here to volunteer for a replacement image for that page. Any ideas?
edited 27th Jun '16 5:39:46 AM by Morgenthaler
You've got roaming bands of armed, aggressive, tyrannical plumbers coming to your door, saying "Use our service, or else!"
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
Mayoiga is a (very entertaining) Stealth Parody of crappy indie horror/thriller movies, and Lovepon is entirely Played for Laughs. She's a Devil in Plain Sight Harmless Villain who's treated as a mild eccentric by the rest of the cast despite her constant ranting about torture and execution, and doesn't belong anywhere near this trope.
What's precedent ever done for us?
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Well, we got Jenner
.
Anyway, after of episode 3 (When I not even know it was a parody), I thought she was going to kill the rest of the cast and would be the Big Bad of the series.
"She's a Devil in Plain Sight Harmless Villain"
- Lovepon isn't Harmless. In fact she is much more dangerous and psychotic that her "boss" Mikage.
Anyway, the villain of Kabaneri seems to me the best candidate.
- Is the classic monster pretending to be an extremist well-intentioned (As koba or Apocalypse)
edited 27th Jun '16 7:50:19 AM by dantecito
Well, you're more than free to propose him
Planeswalker
Hey guys. I reread yet another fantasy series sitting around in my house over the weekend, and oh boy. I have no less than five possible CM candidates from nine books, and there was a possible sixth but I decided not to try effortposting him until I reread his segments a few times and decide whether he's operating under Blue-and-Orange Morality or not.
Without further ado, here are a few of the candidates from The Wayfarer Redemption and The Darkglass Mountain Trilogy, both by Sara Douglass.
First up is Hagen.
Who is he?
Hagen is a priest of Achar, the plow god, and Azhure's adoptive father.
What does he do?
Hagen is an abusive, sexist, and racist asshole. He marries Azhure's mother, Niah, and expects her to be a perfect housewife, beating her if she steps out of line. When he finds out her daughter Azhure is half-Icarii he flies into a rage, beating Niah and then throwing her into a lit fireplace, burning her to death and taking great delight in said death. He then beat and cut out Azhure's wings, cutting her every night until they could not grow back and giving her such mental trauma she was forced to forget the event. He tells her her mother ran away because of her, and proceeds to abuse her for several years and turns the village's opinion against her, leaving her an outcast in her own home.
Later, when an Avar family tries to find shelter in his village, he captures them both and locks them in a basement with no food or water, planning on putting them both to death for simply existing. He is killed when he catches Azhure trying to free the family and tries to kill her in response.
Mitigating Factors?
None.
Freudian Excuse?
Nope. He just uses his god and religion as an excuse to be a dick.
Redemption?
Nope.
Heinous Standard?
He does all he can considering he's not a Humanoid Abomination or Physical God like pretty much every other major villain in the series. He's also only in the book for a few chapters. I'd say he does pretty well considering his limitations.
—-
Next up we have Wolfstar Sunsoar.
Who is he?
Wolfstar Sunsoar was a leader of the Icarii and The Dark Man training Gorgarael.
What does he do?
Wolfstar Sunsoar ascended to the throne thousands of years prior to the main story by having his wife, Starlaughter, murder the previous Talon. Once he is Talon he begins experimenting on the Star Gate, the source of all Icarii Enchanters' powers. He becomes convinced there is something through the gate they must contact and begins throwing Icarii children through the gate, demanding they come back through and report on what they find. When none return, he throws his pregnant wife through the gate, laughing as she and their son die and revealing he never loved her. He is finally killed by his brother after this.
However, he is contacted by a mysterious man who tells him to go back and create a hero powerful enough to defend Tecendor from the Timekeeper Demons. In order to do this, he returns to life and manipulates thousands of people throughout history. He directly causes the Charonites' extinction by tricking them into dying for his cause and indirectly causes a war that kills thousands of humans because he trains Gorgarael in magic to make an Antichrist for Axis to fight against. He is also directly responsible for making Niah marry Hagen, resulting in her death and all the abuse Azhure suffered through. He is indirectly responsible for a war that kills hundreds of thousands by again, training the Antichrist and for mind raping Timozel into agreeing to a Deal with the Devil because the prophecy he wrote needed a traitor.
In the second series, he awakens Niah's soul inside Zenith and rapes and impregnates her, causing Niah to take over her granddaughter's body. When Zenith returns to her body and forcefully aborts the fetus, he takes it and tries to use demonic magic to revive it and use it as a tool to combat the demons. He is captured doing this and forced to confront his wife. When he does so he says she deserved what she got and tries to humiliate her further before he is stopped.
While presenting himself as a Well-Intentioned Extremist, saving the world from the demons is revealed to be secondary to him being the one to save it and assume power over it when the Timekeeper demons manage to break through the barrier to Tencendor. He refuses to accept Drago as the true saviour of the world because he wants Drago's brother Caelum to be, and only after Caelum dies does he try to worm into Drago's good graces by forcing himself into a relationship with the granddaughter he'd previously raped. He later causes Zenith's death when his insane wife thinks Zenith has stolen him away from her and has her torn apart limb from limb. He's just... Vile.
Freudian Excuse:
None.
Redeeming Factors?
Again, he claims he's just doing what he has to do, but even before he knew about the demons he killed hundreds of children and his own wife and son, and as his plans fall apart he's shown to deep down only be interested in saving the world if he gets recognition for it.
Heinous Standard:
He caused essentially everything terrible that happened in the first trilogy and a huge subplot in the second.
Redemption:
No. He's one of two characters who is expressly forbidden to enter the afterlife (even a demon managed to get redeemed), and his soul is doomed to wander space for all eternity mocked by all of existence.
—- EDIT: Next three will be in another post so it's not overwhelming to read. Sorry guys.
edited 27th Jun '16 9:08:39 AM by PhiSat
Oissu!
Wild Child
Phi Sat, may I suggest not putting all of your proposals into one post? It can get a little nauseating to read the whole thing.
EDIT: Since you removed three of them, I'll say ![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Wolfstar. Leaning no on Hagen.
edited 27th Jun '16 9:31:45 AM by Clown-Face
Why so serious?
I remember when I had a bunch of Runescape efforts to make. I did each one per week since it gives time to give proper discussion on each candidate.
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
Planeswalker
Good point. I just left the first two, the others can be in another post.
I'll re-add the others at a later time.
So, I was wondering if I could propose two villains that are unfortunately on the Never Again list. Now I did discuss these with ACW, and he is not convinced with one of them but feels I have some good points on the other one. And he said that I should check to see if they have been brought up or not. Unfortunately they have been numerous times. So Scraggle said I could propose them if I give new evidence. Now if I don't give you guys anything you haven't heard before I apologize, and I will let it go if the answer remains the same. But first, do I have permission to propose these two and make writeups?
edited 27th Jun '16 9:42:57 AM by zcooper95
Lost in Space
No, you do not. If it's on the "never again" list, it's banned from being brought up, and we will enforce that with moderation.
edited 27th Jun '16 9:43:24 AM by Fighteer
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Well fine then.
Wild Child
For curiosity's sake, who were these two villains?
Why so serious?
Isn't the rule "unless new evidence arises?"
Sigh....Hopper and Syndrome. ACW says he still doesn't think Hopper qualifies but that I have points on Syndrome but we can forget it now.
Caesar
I'm not trying to start anything here, but if zcooper thinks he/she has new evidence, he/she is free to at least bring up said possible evidence. If it's already been discussed and is not new evidence, we can point that out to him/her, and move on.
I also think that our newer-ish policies on how Offscreen Villainy works, which, as far as I can tell from reading older discussions, weren't in place when he was first discussed, could give Syndrome a bit more of an edge in being heinous enough, but that's just me.
WHAT A WONDERFUL DAY!
Phi: I'll give ayes to Wolfstar. I want to see the others before I say yea or nay to Hagen. That said, can you explain some backstory before you launch into the effortposts? My first thought when beginning Hagen's was "...Who's Azhure?"
There's nothing anyone can say to invalidate Hopper having a redeeming quality, unless a cut of the film without the "Remember Ma!" scene exists.
edited 27th Jun '16 10:03:01 AM by Lightysnake
Reminder everyone: TWO WEEK RULE BEFORE DISCUSSING ANYTHING FROM THE GAME OF THRONES SEASON SIX FINALE!