Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

I can see Scraggle's argument regarding Robotnik, but how would you compare him to how he is treated in Sat Am as bobg mentioned above?

You've got roaming bands of armed, aggressive, tyrannical plumbers coming to your door, saying "Use our service, or else!"

As Ambar said, I think it'd be pretty easy, compared to many other older comics villains, to reimagine Zemo as a CM (except perhaps insofar as he'd likely be outdone by the Red Skull), but even with what you're saying I don't get the sense anyone actually has.

Tempted to vote on Xavius, with a couple of caveats:

• Does Sargeras "twisting his soul into a new terrible form" impair his moral agency or otherwise mitigate his crimes?
• If he "essentially died again when Malfurion turned him into a tree", well, I'd probably want revenge on Malfurion too.

And his getting killed doesn't mitigate his actions any?

edited 17th May '16 6:38:55 AM by ACW

CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts

No. Xavius is the exact same before and after the Satyr transformation. Literally the exact same. He's just a bit nastier due to anger about being killed.

@Morgenthaler: I'd still say those moments happen at much less frequency than they do to Underground!Robotnik's character. The thing is, in Season 2, Robotnik underwent a minor bout of Villain Decay which made him a lot more prone to Stupid Evil and made him a little more susceptible to comedic moments. In Naugus' case (who debuted in "The Void," a season two episode) I'd say that Robotnik's fear of Naugus is entirely justified in his case in that Naugus is the resident Greater-Scope Villain. Since Robotnik's the reason Naugus is sealed in the Void and Naugus is understandably pissed at him, he's every right to be afraid.

Even with that in mind, SATAM!Robotnik still remained as vindictive and cruel as he was in the first season and he was still treated as a serious threat up to the end. The final episode ultimately did close off with a decidedly final defeat of Robotnik (albeit while still leaving his fate open enough for a potential third season, which never came). Irene does bring up a good point in that Underground was axed early and the same thing likely would've happened to Underground!Robotnik, so take that point as you will.

And there's nothing to say that CMs can't be scared of other villains (though no other examples come to mind at the moment).

edited 17th May '16 7:21:36 AM by ACW

CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts

Not at all. If that were the case, we'd have axed Freeza for being scared of Beerus. If a monster knows full well that another villain outmatches their capabilities, their fears are justified - they don't want to mess with that villain because want that villain becoming a threat to their power.

Yes, Underground!Robotnik is still a bad boss. He never gets rid of his minions, but solely because they're useful to him. He even spells that out early on why he keeps the two bounty hunters around, forcing them to work for him as well. For no pay. They were going to leave otherwise, but it was either work for him with no pay, or get roboticized. And when you got a person who can transform into tons of things, roboticization makes them less useful.

Latest Robotnik count (I think):

• : ACW (I'm back to saying yes, but barely), Irene, rmctagg09, Clown-Face, MGD107, MovieFan2000, PhiSat, Verymelon, DeCarta, TobiasDrake; FriedWarthog; Austin, DDD. Plus bobg as the proposer.
• : Scraggle, ANewMan, Ambar, Monessi, nrjxll, tyk, Overlord, Username2527, MiraiYuji; Lighty; Mediawatcher, Awesomekid42
• Abstaining: Ravok, Daniel1559,

14-12-2. Now slightly too close to call.

edited 21st May '16 12:45:30 PM by ACW

CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts

Does anyone know off-hand if anyone from Banshee has already been proposed/shot down? There are a few contenders, but I'm not sure any of them are a slam dunk (Chayton's real close, but he does have a pet-the-dog in his backstory, so...). Still, I'd be willing to Eff-post one or two of them if they haven't already been through the process.

I could be wrong, but I don't think any have been brought up. If it's been 2 weeks, go for it.

CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts

There's two movie CM that I think we should revisisted cause their (supposedly) redeeming traits or mitigating factors.

- Jean Francoise de Morangias: I think he's a bit too insane to qualify. His obsession towards his sister also makes him look a bit pitable. In one scene we see him crying begging the Brotherhood leader to help him to get rid of his obsession. He looks very pathetic to look like a Jerkass Woobie. Morevorer a CM shouldn't cry if he's pure evil, right ? Also, could be he's just manipulated by the Brotherhood leader to do the killings.

Bruce Willis' The Jackal: It's a minor case, but I think we should get a look at it. During the final chase in the underground, he takes a girl as an hostage, but I don't think he meant to hurt her. He just pretends to shoot her and then he let her go totally unharmed. He does so after Declan (Richard Gere) drops the gun so he can have at his mercy. However he said clearly before that he would have let the girl go if Declan dropped the gun and he did it. So he kept his promise, a thing a CM usually doesn't.

edited 17th May '16 9:46:52 AM by MovieFan2000

You may have a point about Jackal. It's different than, say, Luther.

CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts

Ok, That means two of the six I was thinking of will have to wait a couple weeks (Declan and Calvin). I'll start with Sanchez, and add others as time allows.

Who is he?

Damien Sanchez is a famous MMA fighter, known for his charisma and undefeated streak. He's kinda pointedly a Mayweather pastiche.

What's he do?

Well, his establishing character moment is being unnecessarily rough with his trainer in an exhibition, but that's not really so bad. Later that night, though, he's having sex with a cocktail waitress he met at the exhibition, and when she's not "fucking him hard enough", he mercilessly beats and rapes her. She's hospitalized by the abuse, and it's one of the most violent sequences in a show whose calling card is violence.

When confronted by the sheriff, he is completely without remorse, laughing at the sheriff's attempts to arrest him, and nearly beating the sheriff to death.

Also, just as an added "this guy is a dick" he marks each victory by having a noose painted on his trailer.

Heinous by the standards of the show?

Yeah. Banshee's an extremely violent show, but rape's uncommon in it. Over four seasons, Sanchez is one of four characters to attempt it (I'll be submitting two of the others later), and one of only two to succeed. The brutal beating he hands the woman before/during is also completely in a league of its own even on a show with such a over-the-top violence as Banshee, and is uncomfortable to watch.

He's completely unrepentant, which also largely sticks out; most of Banshee's villains are nuanced and complex, many of them haunted by guilt. Sanchez (along with the Albino, Declan, and perhaps Chayton) is one of the only ones who seems entirely remorseless, and hands out the most brutal beating on the show to a character who is completely defenseless (whereas the Albino's victim is at least a dangerous fighter in his own right).

Freudian Excuse?

None given.

Mitigating factors?

Banshee's heinous standard is pretty high. The Albino is a sadist who specialize in Prison Rape, Declan is a serial killer who subjects his victims to Cold-Blooded Torture, Calvin and Sharpe are vicious Neo-Nazis, and Chayton Littlestone is willing to kill dozens of innocents to get to one man he feels wronged him.

That said, none of them hand out the kind of beating on a defenseless victim that Sanchez does, and Rape Is a Special Kind of Evil. With the exception of the Albino, the others all at least (wrongly) believe they've got some noble reason for their monstrousness, but Sanchez just does it 'cause he wants to.

Verdict:

Leaning yes.

edited 17th May '16 10:01:56 AM by Monessi

Banshee Effortpost #2: The Albino

Who is he?

The Albino is a hulking beast of a man we only ever meet in prison. He's hired by Rabbit to torture our hero.

What's he do?

He beats our man within an inch of his life, with the explicitly stated intention of repeatedly doing it again at every available opportunity (and also raping him) for the next 15 years. He's already got at least one reluctant prison boyfriend, and everybody pretty much warns the hero that he's gonna get it one way or the other.

He cheerfully gloats about how his prison "boyfriend" was straight and desirable outside, but in prison he's The Albino's boytoy.

After the hero pisses him off, he holds the hero at razor-point and demands he blow him, with the understanding that if he doesn't "come fast and hard" he'll kill him.

Heinous by the standards of the show?

Yeah. Like I said about Sanchez, rape's pretty uncommon on the show, and rape with the threat of murder behind it is, IIRC, unique to The Albino. He's also totally remorseless and takes visible joy in beating/stabbing the protagonist.

Mitigating factors?

He's doing it for money? It's something he delights in, though, so I don't know how much that really matters.

Freudian excuse?

None given.

Pet the dog moments?

Not really. He's mad when the hero carves up his "boyfriend," but seems more annoyed that he made his sextoy less "pretty" than upset about the pain/harm inflicted.

Verdict?

Leaning yes.

Who are the other 3 attempted rapists, and which one succeeds?
Abstaining on Sanchez. While he crosses the Moral Event Horizon, I'm not sure one rape is enough (which is why I was a bit iffy on Le Tenia, but his lasts for 9 minutes).
Ditto Albino (though I'm leaning more of a to him).

edited 17th May '16 10:13:20 AM by ACW

CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts

The Albino I guess implicitly succeeded in the past, but never does on camera. There's a biker who tries to rape a female character in an early episode and is promptly shot and killed, and then there's Calvin Bunker, a Neo-Nazi who raped his wife a couple weeks back after killing her father. I'll likely be nominating him in about two weeks, but he's still on the show (and has some Pet The Dog arguments against him, kinda) so he'll have to wait.

I don't believe there's anyone in the show with multiple rapes (beyond the Albino's implicit ones), so one rape is extremely heinous by the standards of the show.

The thing about Sanchez is the brutality of it. It's a long, difficult to watch scene of him pounding this defenseless woman, and almost turned me off the show (though the comeuppance he gets for it is profoundly satisfying). Banshee usually runs on World of Badass logic, so seeing a defenseless victim get brutalized at such length and for such a trivial reason (she was already having sex with him, for crying out loud) is really jarring and unique to Sanchez.

Edit: Just re-watched the comeuppance scene. Sanchez's trainer implies this is a semi-regular occurrence for Sanchez. Sanchez also literally laughs out loud when accused of rape.

edited 17th May '16 10:26:56 AM by Monessi

Hmm, I'll give Sanchez a then.

CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts

Sanchez.

Tentative to Sanchez. Unsure on Albino for the moment.

Also, just a reminder for any newcomers or people who have been known to want to discuss episodes immediately following their premieres, the Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. finale airs tonight, but it will be up for discussion on May 31st, 2016, at which time I will be handling the primary effortpost for possible contenders. Until then, please refrain from even mentioning the finale.

Thanks in advance.

edited 17th May '16 10:47:52 AM by Ravok

Tonight I dine on monkey soup.

"Until then, please refrain from even mentioning the finale."
You just did.

edited 17th May '16 10:50:11 AM by ACW

CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts

Ok, Banshee Effortpost 3: Chatyon Littlestone

Last one for now, I'll wait until these three resolve/the two week time limit passes to do the rest.

Who is he?

Chayton Littlestone is a Kinaho man who lives on the reservation near Banshee and hates the white man really a lot. He is also the leader of the Redbones gang.

What's he do?

When we first meet Chayton, Sheriff Hood is investigating the murder of a Kinaho girl that Chayton actually had nothing to do with. Upon meeting Hood, Chayton immediately attacks him.

Chayton doesn't do much else in Season 2 (he's apprehended, then escapes with a threat of returning).

He returns in Season 3 after a certain Kinaho character (who it's established Chayton didn't even like) is killed, and uses that death as an excuse to attempt to start a war. He explicitly states that he knows his people have nothing to gain from it, he just wants to hurt the white man as much as possible in retaliation.

He starts this process by murdering a bunch of marines and stealing the truckload of guns they were transporting. From there, he sends a few of his men to kill and/or kidnap Kai Proctor and his teenaged niece Rebecca. Those men fail, and Chayton's little brother Tommy attempts revenge for the death of one of the would-be kidnappers by attacking one of Proctor's clubs, and is killed by deputy Billy Raven to stop him from killing another cop. Proctor gets his revenge on Chayton by destroying Tommy's body.

Shortly thereafter, Proctor is arrested for other reasons, and with Billy and Proctor in the same place (the police station), Chayton gathers his gang and lays siege to the building. He wants to kill both Billy and Proctor, and makes it explicitly clear that he's willing to kill the two-dozen or so innocents and the other three cops in the building in order to do it.

As the siege progresses, Chayton eventually makes it inside the building. Up till now, Chayton has been mostly portrayed as an honorable Proud Warrior Race guy, but he shows his true colors when he ambushes Deputy Siobhan Kelly from behind. He waits until Sheriff Hood can see him, then breaks the helpless woman's neck.

After this, Sheriff Hood seeks revenge, and goes after Chayton, wounding him. As Chayton attempts to escape, he is almost stopped by his foster sister Amy, who helped raise him and has since become a cop. He almost kills her, but Hood chases him off.

He seeks refuge in a barn, where he meets a kindly woman who bandages his wounds and tries to help him. He murders both her and her neighbor and moves on.

Hood finally catches up to him in New Orleans, where Chayton attempts to kill Hood in his sleep, although in Chayton's defense Hood had previously attacked Chayton while he slept back in Banshee.

Heinous by the standards of the show?

Oh my, yes. Clayton's bodycount is extremely high for a villain on Banshee, and his ultimate goal is as much white death as possible. His cold-blooded murder of Siobhan is one of the single most heinous moments on the show, and the act that most affects Hood emotionally and psychologically across all four seasons, causing a borderline Heroic BSoD. His willingness to kill both his foster sister and the woman who helped shelter him separates him from the more common Noble Demon and Even Evil Has Loved Ones Big Bads of the show.

Freudian Excuse:

Not really. He's justifiably upset about the white man's history of abuse against the natives, but his response of "let's start a war and kill everyone" hurts both sides and doesn't help anything. This is pointed out to him explicitly, but he still doesn't care.

Mitigating Factors:

Here's where it gets tricky. There are two big ones for Chayton, though I'm not sure either is big enough to take him off the list.

1) He gets really mad when his brother is killed. His brother is also a pretty bad dude, attempting to disfigure a bunch of innocent strippers just to piss off Proctor, but if any familial affection disqualifies you, that'd cut him. That said, given his interaction with Amy, were his brother not on his side, he'd likely be willing to kill him.

2) He has a pretty big Pet the Dog moment in Nola's backstory, where he saves her from heroin addiction and a guy who seems to be keeping her deliberately drugged up (ala Cassidy from Preacher). His motives for this aren't made clear- he and Nola don't seem to especially like each other when they meet in the present- and it's possible it was as simple as keeping the Kinaho's most dangerous piece (beside himself, at least) on the board- but we're not given enough information to be sure. All we know is that he rescued her.

Verdict:

I'm still fairly new to this, so I'm not sure. We've definitely OK'd CMs that have loved ones or Pet the Dog moments before, but it seems we've also shot some down. I'd say that his bodycount, indifference to collateral damage, sadism, and willingness to kill even people who are trying to help him sets apart, but reasonable men can differ.

Not trying to restart the Osborn argument, but the best point anyone made in his favor on that one was that Norman was the villain who most hurt Peter psychologically; Chayton fills that role for Hood, and it's not very close, as Hood keeps having flashbacks to Chayton even a full season later, and Chayton's murder of Siobhan is explicitly noted as half the reason Hood breaks down after Season 3.

The last thing to note about all three Banshee candidates is that Banshee, in general, tends towards extremely complex or sympathetic villains. Most of the other antagonists are painted in shades of grey, particularly Proctor and Rabbit (the series' two most prominent villains; Chayton is probably third), while these three (and a few others) are uniquely amoral and vicious.

edited 17th May '16 11:03:05 AM by Monessi

Well, if it's pointed out to Chayton that the war would not help him, and he doesn't care, that doesn't disqualify him. As for his Pet the Dog moment, that happened in the past, so that's probably not disqualifying. As for his brother...I don't think we HAVE voted up characters that had/have loved ones...unsure. If it's a case of him loving his brother, then he can't count.

edited 17th May '16 11:04:02 AM by ACW

CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts

My most assured goes to the Albino, though I'll say yes to Sanchez too.

Again, not trying to restart the argument, but Norman's constantly been portrayed as loving his wife very much, and minus the one story where he tries to have him killed, has usually been portrayed as caring about Harry.

Red Skull is usually portrayed as caring about his daughter, as well.

Those are the only two who spring to mind off-hand, but the Marvel page is the only one I've really looked much at.

Back on Chayton, it's not clear that he necessarily loves his brother (though I'd say it's implied). He uses his brother's death as an excuse to start a war he was planning on starting anyway. That said, gun to my head I'd say he did care at least a little about Tommy, so if that's a hard and fast rule that familial affection disqualifies you, then he's out.

Edit: Sounds like a few people are on the fence about the Albino. Is there anything I can clear up to help you decide one way or the other?

edited 17th May '16 11:17:39 AM by Monessi