During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Did we vote on him?
The Dark Lord of Hawaiian Shirts
I mentioned him earlier when Lightysnake suggested me to nominate him insteadof Lorne, but it was drowned by other candidates before a vote could take place.
edited 2nd May '15 3:41:33 PM by Hawaii_Knut
Srg. Dornan: Troper, what are you doing here?! Get back to your post!!!
@ACW: Ah, thanks. Looks nice.
I'm still convinced Hasty is a keep. What's her current tally?
You and you alone. No one else here wants to seriously vote on Hasky.
edited 3rd May '15 6:11:24 AM by VeryMelon
<Moderator speaking>
We are getting several complaints about this thread lately.
~Very Melon, your dismissive tone is unacceptable; stop it. ~Lightysnake, you are becoming hostile and shouty frequently lately; practice some civility.
~bobg, Tao has been discussed in the past; endlessly repeating a topic is not good practice. Same for you, ~Klavice - please don't repeat old issues if you haven't anything new to offer.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
A total has-been.
Tao is still a ![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
BTW. He's not likely going anywhere.
Since Babidi and Super Buu have more resources than him, what they have done means nothing since Van Zant did not have the resources they did.
It's not just a matter of resources - it's a matter of actions that are considered by the narrative's standards and the standards of other characters to be truly heinous. Van Zant's actions are objectively terrible criminal acts and are treated as such, but despite his actions indirectly driving Buu to being consumed by evil, he's largely forgotten about by the time Super Buu is an acting force. Buu proceeds to do things that are painted as being truly heinous and unpardonable, and those actions effect the rest of the story for all the characters. Likewise, Babidi had his share of truly heinous crimes prior to Van Zant's appearance. When the guy is sort of sandwiched in between two more heinous villains, he fails to stand out as completely monstrous.
And taking the rest of the series into account, a genocidal mass murderer who murdered his partner was redeemed, pardoned, and gradually became one of the good guys. So if the story was trying to sell a homicidal maniac who did not turn on his own partner in such a way as being a truly unforgivable, irredeemable monster, that'd be hypocritical.
@Irene: The best way I could put it as for why Tao qualifies while Van Zant doesn't is that Van Zant is like the regular human equivalent to Vegeta from the Saiyan Saga, while Tao is like the regular human equivalent to Freeza. If they had their resources, they'd be just like them. Now between Vegeta and Freeza, which of the two qualifies as a Complete Monster?
Also, it's Hasky, not Hasty. And no one else will vote for her because she was ultimately a throwaway joke villain.
edited 2nd May '15 4:30:28 PM by ANewMan
My issue is nobody was voting "no" instead(I fully understand if they don't think she counts). Any proper proposal should get a yes/no/abstain as is. Otherwise it's just dismissing stuff which is not a very professional way to vote on this topic. We are way more mature than this, after all.
Anyway, I already voted no on Van Zant after more information. Also, my bad. Hasky. It doesn't help I did not see that arc and am entirely depending on information on here(which is generally how votes can happen and why effortposts are severely important). Although the one-off joke villain is noted. I feel it's the same basic issue that Ooze had. Just wasn't serious enough, if their crimes are beyond up high. Changing it to a ![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
instead with that in mind.(and it seems everybody who effectively has talked about is voting the same way, even if implied as a vote, so I have no issues with moving on either. I don't think she'll come up again, outside of a new version of DBZ that removes the "joke" part, though. I know there is a new adaption, so anything can happen. Again, apologies, I didn't much notice the one-off part. She doesn't stand up to the others, which also makes my no a bit easier to give).
edited 2nd May '15 4:40:26 PM by Irene
It paints a very sad picture of the state of this project when people are seriously discussing wether mooks and random thugs can count.
To try and kill the argument on Van Zant; he doesn't kill his partner despite his partner screwing up. That makes him the best bad guy boss in the entire franchise.
Here's the thing about Hasky that prevents her from counting:
Hasky is a throw-away joke villain, who's not really played seriously. She's an amusing, short lived villain who is defeated by Goku tickling her. I cannot possibly see her as this trope.
On a different topic, does anybody wanna work on the Fan Works sandbox? Most of the really bad entries have been weeded out, but it still needs cleaning.
edited 2nd May '15 5:08:57 PM by TVRulezAgain
Sorry, Tv Ruelz, I'll check that out soon, but:
Yeah, I think Black Garius counts. The village massacre was something...unique in that game.
I have already changed my mind and decided that Zant did not qualify due to his questionable Villainous Friendship with Smitty and the fact that Hasky had just as many resources and had a way higher attempted bodycount. I also accept that Hasky does not count due to not being treated seriously. What I was wondering was if Hasky's actions overshadowed Tao enough that he did not qualify either. After all, Jeff from Family Guy was disqualified because his seriously treated crimes failed the standard set by non seriously treated ones. Of course, I suppose he's not that far behind her, after all, there did seem to be a couple hundred lives he endangered with his super Dodon ray, so I guess it's a case like that with some of the Ace Attorney villains, in that while some of them are not as bad as some of the others despite having the same resources, it's close enough tat they are not vastly overshadowed. With that said, I am done talking about DBZ. I don't wanna get a second strike. I was already temporarily suspended from editing once. Now if you will excuse me I have to go take care of a bad pimple in my left ear.
jjj
for Black Garius.
Well, let's wait until Dragon Ball Super, I'm sure we'll have plenty to discuss there.
Alright, Killzone time...I'm proposing Vladko Tyran and Hillary Masser, before I rewrite Jorhan Stahl.
As usual, some background: The games are about the Vektan forces (Humans) warring with the fascist Helghast Empire. Now, neither side is what I would call morally upstanding, but at any rate...
Now, the Helghan war rages on for years and years before the fight ends. The leader of the Helghast Empire is killed, and an accident results in a bioweapon hitting Helghan itself. The Helghast surrender, but the new de facto leader, weapons manufacturer Jorhan Stahl, secretly survives.
Skip ahead some decades. Tensions remain high. The remaining Helghast have been forced to relocate to Vekta and live as second class citizens. The civilian populations suffer as well. Now, it is revealed Stahl is leading a cabal of forces led by the terrorist leader Vladko Tyran.
Tyran has a fanatic hatred of humans and devotes his forces to swift, brutal attacks on civilians. To put it simply, Tyran takes a bevy of hostages, ordering his forces to execute them, and tries to rewire a set of trains to send them smashing into civilian population centers where they'll explode like massive bombs and kill countless civilians.
It is later revealed that Tyran and Stahl have a much greater goal in mind: they plan to commit 'Terracide,' using a bioweapon to kill anything with human DNA all over. Stahl has previously unleashed it on a smaller scale.
Which brings me to Dr. Hilary Masser, mad scientist extraordinaire. Masser experiments on sentients so she can create the weapon, viewing humanity as 'inferior' to the Helghast and having no compunction wiping them out.
So we have a trio of villains who are aiming to commit genocide, in addition to their other crimes. None of them have redeeming qualities in game: Stahl is a Bad Boss to insane proportions (when he flees his ship in Killzone 3, he snarls 'fuck 'em' about his men left behind to die), Tyran is a vicious terrorist and Masser is a sociopathic mad scientist.
Killzone has a high heinous standard, but Stahl definitely counts and Masser and Tyran fit in as well. The Helghast are bad, but hardly uniformly evil...two of the most noble characters in the series are Vekta-Helghast hybrids, and the Vekta can be just as bad.
But flat out genocide is something pretty unique.
to the Killzone examples. ACW, did anyone actually vote on Shark and Blunt? I can't remember too many people voting on the former, and the latter just had a rewrite brought up despite the fact that he was legitimately cut before.
And I'm hardly the first to say this, but to Hasty and Zant, with an added note; we can discuss things seriously here without devolving into hostile feuds. Remember that.
I will say no to Van Zant and Hasty, yes to Yahmose and Black Garius.
So a couple if pages back I talked with Morgenthaler about discussing some Mirror Universe examples from Star Trek, so I watched all the mirror universe episodes of Star Trek (there are about 8 of them) and now I wouldlike to discuss the villains from the Mirror Universe.
The Mirror Universe has two major time periods, it is ruled by the Terran Empire from the 21st century to the 23rd century, then it is ruled by the Klingon Cardassian Alliance in the 24th century. The mirror universe is visited in TOS, DS 9 and Enterprise.
I would argue the Mirror Universe has its own heinious standard separate from the main Star Trek Universe, considering it is a separate universe, the characters are often radically different different from their Prime Universe counter parts. While many characters in the Mirror Universe are unrepentant Jerkass types who would sell their own mothers to get ahead, there are enough nice characters not to ruin the heinous standard completely.
The first entry to the Mirror Universe kinda proves the concept, both Checkov and Sulu are huge Jerk Asses who are willing to kill their superiors to move up in rank. It is suggested that Mirror Kirk is a mass murderer, having blown up a planet to further his career, but all of that is off screen, Mirror Kirk is only seen for a couple of minutes in the episode. Also am I safe in assuming off screen acts do not count towards the heinious standard? Star Fleet Command orders the Mirror Enterprise to destroy a planet that chooses not to cooperate with the Terran Empire, so that is heinious, but we never see anyone from Star Trek command, so they don't count.
In the Enterprise episodes, Archer seems to love Hoshi (heck Hoshi tried to kill Archer and Archer did not punish her in any real way, which was pretty foolish), Hoshi manages to take over the Empire, but she does that at the last second and doesn't get to do anything else. I don't think anyone else counts.
Now the Deep Space Nine episodes are interesting, because they had a some what interconnected arc dealing with the Mirror Universe after the Terran Empire is over thrown.
The Klingon Cardassian Alliance controls DS 9 (known by its original name Terok Nor) and use Terran slaves to process ore from Bajor.
Mirror Worf is the dictator that runs the Alliance, while there is nothing really sympathetic about him, he just might not be evil to count, when the Terrans rebel against the Alliance and take over Terok Nor, Worf wants all the rebels on the station killed, typical evil dictator stuff. He is a Bad Boss, killing an underling for no real reason and chaining Garak to his throne for failing him and choking him from time to time. Worf also doesn't keep his word and will kill people who no longer serve his purposes. There was an episode where Mirror Worf kidnapped Grand Nagus Zek and held him prisoner, wanting Quark to deliver him a cloaking device and planned to kill Quark and Zek after getting what he wants.
Mirror Garak is a slimy opportunist, and a rather incompetent Smug Snake, unlike his Magnificent Bastard prime universe counter part. He wants to kill Mirror Kira, who runs Terok Nor and take her position, but his plans always fail. Mirror Garak has some nasty moments, coming up with a particularly painful way to execute Prime Quark and his friends when Mirror Worf no longer needs them, but he falls short of being a monster.
Mirror Kira is the most interesting villain to discuss, I can't decide whether she has any morals or loved ones or whether she is just an impulsive psychopath, she is a Mood-Swinger and really her cruelty seems to depend on her mood. She is in charge of Terok Nor and most of the stuff that goes on there is her fault. She is also the most prominent villain of the Deep Space Nine mirror episodes, having appeared in all of them.
In her first appearance, a Terran tries to escape from Terok Nor, Garak suggests killing him, but Kira merely sentences him to hard labor and seems to be annoyed with Garak for his suggestions. Mirror Quark was helping Terrans escape and when Mirror Garak arrested him and brought him before Kira, Kira ordered him to be executed. When Prime Bashir manages to kill Mirror Odo, Mirror Kira seems upset (stating he was a unique creature and that no one could maintain discipline among the slaves as well he did, but I'm not sure if she liked Mirror Odo or thought he was a useful employee) and wanted Bashir and Mirror O'Brien publicly and painfully executed. Mirror Kira also has an infatuation with Prime Kira, but that is likely just narcissism.
In her second appearance Mirror Kira was in a bad mode and ordered 3 random slaves executed. Mirror Garak seems to think Mirror Kira is being too harsh, complaining that they will run out of slaves if Kira keeps up with the random executions. Mirror Garak suggests Mirror Kira is unhappy because Mirror Ben Sisko died recently (they had a sexual relationship in the past), but Mirror Kira denies this and in fact informed Mirror Jennifer Sisko of Mirror Ben Sisko's death in a rather mater of fact kinda way. When Prime Ben Sisko is pretending to be Mirror Sikso, Mirror Kira seems rather pleased, ignoring Mirror Garak suggestion to kill him and instead takes him to her quarters. However Kira says she plans on killing Sisko eventually, how long he stays alive will depend on how he pleases her, so I'm not sure she really loves. Also Kira's quarters almost always seem to have human sex slaves in them, making her seem like a real creep. Mirror Rom seems to betrayed Sisko, but was in fact a double agent releasing false info to the Alliance, Garak suspects this, has Rom tortured and after revealing the truth, Rom is later seen outside a air lock with a knife in his chest (I'm not sure if we can blame Kira or Garak for that). Kira also seems to make no bones about killing Sisko for betraying her again, seeming to cast doubt whether she really loves him).
In her next appearance, Kira has been captured by the Terran rebels. She escapes with the help of Mirror Nog. However Kira kills Nog, so he cannot reveal where she is planning on escaping to. Kira tries to kill Prime Jake Sisko, but Mirror Jennifer Sisko steps in the way of her phaser blast. Kira then decides to spare Jake, because in her mind that would mean Ben Sikso owes her a favor, one she will collect at a time of her choosing.
Mirror Kira doesn't really kill anyone in her next appearance, she has traveled to the regular Star Trek universe, to steal an Bajoran orb, so she can use it to take over Mirror Bajor. She incapacitates a Bajorean guard, but does not kill him. To aid in this scheme she sends the Mirror version of Bareil (who in the regular universe Kira's former lover and a man respected in Bajor) to steal the orb. Mirror Bareil has a change of heart and knocks out Mirror Kira, telling Prime Kira that he is sure he can talk his way back into her good graces. Mirror Kira mocks and berates Bareil and we never see Mirror Bareil again, so maybe he over estimated his charms.
In her final appearance, Kira is helping Worf get his hands on a cloaking device from the Prime Universe. Kira is using Prime Quark and Rom to get the cloaking device. Kira kills Mirror Brunt (a slimy corporate Jerkass in the Prime Universe, but a Nice Guy in the Mirror Universe), for no real reason. Mirror Ezri is Kira's newest lover and it does seem debatable whether Kira actually loves her. Kira tries to escape when Worf is forced to surrender to the Defiant. Kira bumps into Ezri and says she is been looking for her (I'm not sure if that is a lie and if Mirror Kira just bumped into her and is telling a lie to get Ezri back on her side or not, both Kira and Ezri were holding guns on each other, unwilling to trust each other, until they both lowered them to end the stand off). After rejecting Kira's proposal that she accompany her, Kira says something about it being a little late to grow to conscience, which Ezri relies to by saying "I hope not." With that Kira makes an annoyed sound and leaves without Ezri.
So in conclusion, Mirror Kira is not guilty of mass murder, but she does have a decent body count. Mirror Archer likely killed more people by destroying a Vulcan ship that was fleeing from a battle, but she likely has the second highest on screen body count in the Mirror Universe. Her redeeming qualities seem somewhat debatable and her resource level changes episode to episode.
She could count, but I think you could also make a case against her. I don't think anyone else from the Mirror Universe can count. Sorry that took so long, but I think a discussion about Mirror Kira had to somewhat involved.
edited 2nd May '15 11:15:18 PM by Overlord
The only relationship that Mirror Kira has that sounds possibly redeeming is with Ezri. It doesn't sound like she really cared for Mirror Odo or Sisko.
edited 2nd May '15 8:50:03 PM by Camberf
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
I'll hold off on Shark and Blunt for now; if anyone wants to see 12 oz mouse: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hI-4Ye-OK4. to the Killzone trio. Stahl and Tyran seem to be the leaders, while Masser is trying to create the weapon. I'll take it the bioweapon hitting Helghan isn't treated as a Freudian Excuse or anything?
Nope. It's more complex than that. Especially not on Stahl, who views purges as a positive thing to get rid of the weak.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Gah. I'll reiterate my for the trio then.
BTW, I'm not sure Curtis Freley got more than 2 votes either. Also, what about Pickman?
edited 3rd May '15 6:26:49 AM by ACW
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Black Garius and the Killzone examples.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Okay, so Curtis Freley has 2 votes, plus the proposer, plus I guess I'll toss one, so that's 4. That's probably enough.
I guess Pickman just fell by the wayside.
I'm inclined to Samuel Blunt; I think that's 3 (snailfish, myself, and Lighty seemed to be heading that way).
Two votes for Shark; him I don't think I'll add, as the show just seems so damn WEIRD.
TL; DR: Freley and Blunt go, Shark goes to Complete Monster YMMV Pages for now, Pickman needs to be re-proposed.
I'll
Black Garius BTW; massacring an entire peaceful village just to frame the player? Yeesh.
edited 3rd May '15 8:00:39 AM by ACW
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
I think Solomon should go on the Doctor Who Monster page. Here is the article that could go on: Solomon from "Dinosaurs on a Spaceship". He first seems like a wounded old man, but shows himself to be a ruthless and selfish pirate, who only cares about making profit. When the Doctor says he won't heal his legs unless he tells him how he got the dinosaurs, Solomon has one of his robots injure Brian, and tells the Doctor next time it will be fatal. He reveals that he jettisoned all the Silurians from the airlock when they refused to sell the dinosaurs to him and shows no remorse about it. When he finds the Doctor has Queen Nefertiti, he has his robots shoot the Triceratops dead and threatens to kill everybody else so he can have Nefertiti. When he captures Nefertiti, Solomon tells her 'I will break you with immense pleasure', implying he will rape her. He is such a horrible character that the normally light-hearted 11th Doctor subverts Save The Villain and leaves Solomon to die on a spaceship targeted by missiles, asking him if the Silurians begged him to stop.
New Point: Some people are saying that Solomon isn't bad by the standards of DW villains. He may be relatively minor, he hasn't conquered or destroyed worlds, but Oswald Danes went on the Monster page even though his actions were relatively mild. There are quite a few morally complex villains in DW, but Solomon is meant to be utterly abhorrent.
edited 19th Jun '15 12:21:30 AM by MrThorfan64
Lost in Space
He's an unrepentant bastard, to be sure, but he fails to be exceptional by the standards of Doctor Who villains.
edited 3rd May '15 10:50:56 AM by Fighteer
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Hello folks, I have a suggestion:
Neverwinter Nights 2: Black Garius.
Black Garius is the self proclaimed lord of the fifth tower of Luskan. He's the leader of the Cult of Shadow, a group of necromancers that plunders gravesites and old battle sites for corpses to their army and tries to free the King of Shadows. Or so it seems. In reality, he wants to exploit the King for power, something he can't get enough of, treats his subordinates as expendable pawns (even his own Dragon admits this if you spare her after his death) and was ready to wipe out the remaining cultists as soon as he was done with the ritual to bind the King. However, the ritual is botched and he dies, only to be revived as a Shadow Reaver, a slave to the King. Even after that, he's perfectly fine with his state, as he has more magical powers than he had in life. His greatest atrocity in the game however, was ordering the massacre of a peaceful village in order to frame the player since he/she had tampered his efforts. And if you prove yourself innocent in the court, he shows no regret over the people that died, but is enraged over his dragons for failing him and kills Lorne on the spot if you didn't do it yourself. Garius was all in all a smug, power hungry backstabber with no redeeming features whatsoever.
edited 4th May '15 8:36:37 AM by Hawaii_Knut
Srg. Dornan: Troper, what are you doing here?! Get back to your post!!!